Debunked

The Fraud Of Nadi Jothidam

When I was contacted by an arranger looking to record a program on our movement featuring me by a journalist, I chose Tamilnadu for two important reasons. One was that the movement there must get due publicity. The other was that the practice of reading one’s prewritten palm leaves by the astrologers was widely believed to be very, very accurate according to many glowing reports on the net. I had visited one such a few years back and had exposed him, but this time there was an opportunity to do more; this time with prior preparation. The added attraction was that the sequence would be shot in high definition, expenses to be taken care of by the company.

On the 8th of June we went to a place, sorry the place for Nadi Jotidam- the Vaitheeswarn Kovil at Chidambaram about 250 kms from Chennai. Our team consisted of Gareth the producer, Brendon his son, Gurmith the photographer, Savitri Choudahry the arranger, Dr. Ganesh and I. We had cooked up a  story for the astrologers- that Gareth was a wealthy textile tycoon and Savitri was his guide for all India, Ganesh for Tamilnadu and I for Karnataka. We were appropriately dressed for the occasion with large vermillion mark on the forehead and me in a long Khadi jiiba to hide my physique which would have made them suspicious of my claim to a poor retired laboratory technician now working as a tourist guide.

agastya-1

Horoscope book for Manjunath with the the cell number to be contacted for any future advice.

The minute we alighted from our cars a horde of unsavoury characters descended on us with offers to have our leaves read and claims that theirs was the only genuine Nadi Jotisham! The moment we fell into the clutches of one and followed him, there were a few snide remarks from others that we were in the hands of a fraud and they were the real genuine ones! Ignoring them we went to the consultation chambers of Govi Jayaraman whose offices were appropriately situated between the elephant shed and the tonsure shed outside the temple.

On entering, the big boss, the textile tycoon was given a royal welcome thanks to his large hat and white skin. I, the poor man, was taken to a smaller room as my reading would be done as an afterthought! The tycoon generously offered to pay for my consultation too. They conducted a due search for the ‘leaves’ belonging to each of us. When queried as to where they came from, were told that the temple was the source for all of the Nadi leaves. Every morning they would visit the temple and obtain the leaves of all those who were preordained to visit them and it was inevitable that those who were to arrive would do so! A really wonderful explanation for anything that could happen! However, they were prepared for any unforeseen things by saying that even the gods could sometimes make mistakes and there could be some. So, all the blame could be transferred onto someone else. It did not matter that even if that were to be a deity.

A preliminary round showed that both of our leaves were there, and a preliminary reading was done following which they said that a detailed report would follow in a few hours. We were asked to go for lunch and be back. The textile tycoon was being charged Rs. 3000 for his reading while the poor guide only 1500. When asked for the difference we were told that my reading was for Agastya Nadi while his was for Shiva Nadi, not withstanding that he had told me a couple of minutes ago that it was my Shiva Nadi that would be read.

Actual horoscope written by the 'mentor' in the photo below

Actual horoscope written by the 'mentor' in the photo below

When we went after lunch two separate readings were arranged for us- the master and the servant. The master was told a lot of things about him which hitherto were unknown to him. He was a womanizer and quite few other things too! But, it was nothing he did in this life that was the cause, it was his past life! He, as a Brahmin in Srilanka in his past life, had impregnated a servant woman. When it was discovered she was poisoned to death. It was this sin of his past life that was weighing heavily upon him in this life too and making him do all the bad things that he was doing. He was promised a solution too.

When we had arrived to visit the temple, we were directed to this place to have our leaves read. So it was quite obviuos that there was a cozy symbiotic relationship between the priests and these Nadi Jotishs. How could he forget them? His solution was to perform appropriate pujas in the temple the way they should be! Of course, they were to be done by a person whom the priest knew very well. The rich white man was told to make the payment in advance and the offerings would be sent to him by post at regular intervals as prescribed.

Me(Manjunath), my mentor and the leaves with all details past and present of my life. The tape recorder in the            picture was used to make a recording which I could keep for my future reference!

Me(Manjunath), my mentor and the leaves with all details past and present of my life. The tape recorder in the picture was used to make a recording which I could keep for my future reference!

While it was that way for the master it was a little different for the servant. I assumed the identity of my brother in law Manjunath (my sister in laws husband) who had passed away on the 30th of April this year. The way they were trying to get the info was quite interesting and not a very good example of cold reading. For example they would tell you that your name starts with certain alphabets and when you deny they would ask some other question about whether your father used a wear a cap and your mother a sari. After getting responses and some more details they would come back and ask whether your name starts with some other alphabets. Here since I had unwittingly revealed my name, or that was the impression I gave, they went directly into other details.

With some encouragement from me the reader started delivering the usual rigmarole that they do. When I expressed fears about my health he told me that I would live upto the age of 80 and enjoy very good health till then. I did not have as colorful a past life as my master had. I was a poor Brahmin at Palakkad and had died at the age of 40 in my past life. However, I was promised that the problems could be solved very easily by performing pujas for a long period. As usual I was told he has friends in the temple that would be glad to do them for a suitable price and no fraud. I was also assured that it would be seen to that the offerings made to the gods on my behalf would be sent by post as prescribed.

Though I was sorely tempted to confront them and expose their fraud I had been told specifically by the producers of the program that we should not do so. However, the modus operandi was very clear- get the victim to give them the needed info and then whatever that could not be gathered would be elicited either by the process of elimination or deduction. So much for the glowing reports on how they gave in writing all the events of the past including the names of one’s parents, grandparents etc. The process of obtaining the information is so obvious that it only a dimwit could not figure it out. It is my feeling that the people who go in for this do so with expectations and accept the things said without question. As noted, they force people to wait in rooms, which may be wired for picking up hints from their conversations.

When we went around the temple we saw hordes of people waiting for pujas and rituals to ward of the ill effects of the planets in which this temple is said to specialize, squalling infants being brutally shaved bald in a ritual signifying the first tonsure. There are a variety of touts who would even tell you to get the rituals done paying them at a discounted rate, rather than getting them performed by paying the so called “official rates” at the office! Ganesh, who had come with me, tried to have some secret confabulations with them as he was supposed to be the tourist guide of the rich man. They told him that he should have informed them before and they would see to it that he was paid a handsome commission.

The fine print or rather blurred print

The fine print or rather blurred print

The modus operandi is quite clear- keep on hammering until you hit the nail on the head. Exploit the credulity of the person and play it by ear. The things put in writing are those put in after the cold reading is done. So, the client is given an impression that all details are put into writing in minutes. The gullible people fall for this nonsense, pay through their nose and get into problems. The solutions they propose are not as innocuous as they seem. They also venture in the realm of the so-called “black magic” and many times cause rifts between close friends and relatives by telling them that black magic has been done by someone close to them through friendship or through relation by blood or marriage. Often, though not always, it is the poor who fall into the clutches of such people and lose their hard earned money. In case of the rich textile tycoon, they could see that he was wealthy, a foreigner who fancies things Indian. They were even fooled about the professional videographer when they were told that he would like to present the videos of his travels to his wife!

In my case they could make out that I was a man with problems- the image that I was trying to project- and treated me accordingly inventing problem after problem for my three children- the eldest a motor mechanic in Dubai, the second who married a lower caste girl and my daughter whose marriage got cancelled because of his indiscretions! The secret is to prepare a nice story beforehand and go with details ready in mind. Better select a date of birth near to your own and of someone of the opposite gender or who is no more. This is so that there will be no confusion about the star and signs of the zodiac. Some of them may be clever enough. The leaves before them have things in writing probably in code language and I suspect these are questions already kept ready to hint for step by step questioning to elicit the proper answers needed to do the “readings”. I could make out that they are not expert cold readers either.

We also went to one more Nadi Jotish at a place near Chennai , the details of which I am not free to disclose as something else is being planned for him. In contrast to his poor cousins on the streets and huts, he was sitting in a house with air conditioning and a number of people around whom he said were his interns. Their looks and mannerisms however were more befitting that of practitioners of the so-called “world’s oldest profession”. So, much for the accurate ‘science’ of Nadi Jotidam.

Hoarding of the super bazar of Nadi

Hoarding of the super bazar of Nadi

About the author

Narendra Nayak

215 Comments

  • One who is afraid of this transactional life needs Astrology or anything including GOD to support him to come through difficulties of this life.
    But one thing we have to understand here is that all the concepts are part and parcel of this creation and transactional life. Somebody MAY get help from these, you and me may not want it and never will be benefited by these things. But then the somebody needs it and somebody is providing it. Somebody may be using it scrupulously to make money out of it. Then, even Doctors are doing scrupulous thing to make money. It shows that any proven scientific fact can be used in two ways, that is proper and improper ways and that is human nature.
    Generate courage to face the life without crutches, including your and mine concepts, but by promoting the fundamentals of this transactional life which will generate the maturity to understand the life and transact fearlessly.
    Thanks and regards
    Vasudev Nair
    rudra_herbal@rediffmail.com

    • Somebody may get real solutions to their problems instead of wasting resources on frauds. You may not want that, but there are people who do. Hence the need for the kind of work that Prof. Nayak does. It’s a matter of ethics and us freethinkers don’t hesitate to call out anyone (like doctors) if they indulge in unethical practices.

      • Yes, my dear, do not waste your time to CHANGE others, CHANGE yourself that is what I mean.

        Even when I am writing this I am trying to CHANGE you isn’t it. But I learn something from it.

        Thanks and regards

        Vasudev Nair

        • I understood what you meant. People who have changed themselves (i.e. got their minds clean of superstitious nonsense and religious dogma) are trying to change others. Please don’t just assume that they need to change and then suggest that they not waste their time. Also, people are free to do what they deem is necessary with their time.

          • every time a God man is exposed, it is publicized and he is put in jail and deemed a criminal. Isnt this also a form of bringing out frauds?
            Why do people hesitate in opening their eyes?
            If you really want to throw away your money, there are many worthy institutions out there. You would feel much better than visiting these con men.

          • [quote] Why do people hesitate in opening their eyes? [/quote]
            When they are exposed to the delusion that they were believing in all these years, they will be profoundly shame faced. Rather than accepting it and moving on, they tend to burrow deeper into their delusion, denying all charges against their guru. They will finally resort to the “It’s a free country, I can worship whoever I want and it’s none of your business” card.

          • Most probably this vasudeva nair is in a parallel fraud .

            He tries to justify nonsense and pseudoscience under the

            garb of language . But that too is third rate .

            See , he doesn’t even know what is ‘scrupulously’.

            These are all pests on the ‘ persona’ of our country .

        • Thanks for you kind advise but I cant understand why you dont follow it yourself. Anyway, to let you into a secret I have changed due all these investigations. I have learnt new methods to expose these people and report that so that others can benefit form that and not get conned.

    • i went to nadi jyothisyam(agastiyar jyothisyam ) they said to me that i will not get job and settled in my life . on coming to my fathers nadi jyothisyam they told that his son(me ) will be get good job and married soon . what is this contradiction? NADI jyothisyam is fraud and nonsence.
      they predict some nonsence and we are supposed to believe that because we paid fees to them . they write in such a kind of tamil that no tamilian understoods it they encode the fraud in a such a manner.

    • Iam a keralite malayalee Brahmin. We in Kerala do not follow nadi jyotsyam. Instead we follow the traditional astrology of Varahamihira’s hora. So I was kind of sceptic about nadi jyotsya.

      I was considering it as some Tamil nonsence and went to a nadi guy. He began to read the lagna part alone (for other, I need to pay extra).He told my caste(Brahmin) my traditional name, and my mother’s name100% correct. But my father’s name and wife name wasn’t correct.I look like a secular non religious guy that day and never bear any resemblance to a tam brahm. I don’t know whether he have seen malayalee Brahmins. Still he figure out my caste. Btw he was seeing me for first time. But predictions were not very impressive though. I asked him what is the script in which it is written? he told me that this was written by sage Agasthya in pully -less Devanagiri. I didn’t understand what is pulli-less nagiri, but it surprised me to know that sage Agasthya wrote it in Devanagiri several milleniums ago about my future. I still firmly believe that Agasthya has wrote everything correctly , only thing this guy is not able to interpret it correctly

      • 100% true.. Even i beleive in Naadi but there are no true astrologers to read the leaf! They just try to tell somthing seeing our horoscope that even an ammature astrologer could do. Im still searching for the perfect place!

    • Wherever you have written “scrupulous” you mean unscrupulous. In other words, what you wrote and what you meant are opposites of each other.

    • A few questions

      Was your d.o.b and time correct?
      Was the name judged correctly?
      In Vaitheeswaran Koil 60% are fraudsters and we know that as locals? Why didn’t you go to established Nadi astrologer?

      It is quite known Nadis can’t predict future correctly esp death..It is accepted astrology principle

      Why don’t you say what happened to your past?

  • Dear Narendra,

    There are lots of frauds happening in Nadi Jothidam. I just wanna know what are the inputs u give them? did u give ur thumbprint? I would say we should never give any details other than thumbprint. No personal details such as name whom u want to read,his parents name,location,DOB,place of birth,profession should be given. If the Nadi reader asks ur name and personal details. He might be a fraud.

    I have experience with Nadi for myself and my friends.Even my friend who is from a different religion,born abroad his details were very accurate and shocking truths were there.

    Unfortunately in every profession there are black sheeps.

    Note: I am not at all related to Nadi jothidam. I am a HR professional by profession and engineer by education.

    • Yes. I gave them a thumbprint and also date of birth.For those who gave only their thumb print only they ask more questions to elicit the information! As for those from abroad there was Gareth who was also told absolute bull shit about himself. We had taken precautions as not to wait at their place when they were ‘searching’ for the written leaves, as the place may be wired and the impatience with waiting may make people talk about their own details.
      They even tell you that your visit is preordained and every morning they go to the temple to get leaves of those who are going to come that day! With such explanations anything can be rationalised. If they what they say is wrong they can always tell you that that too was preordained and you must come another day.Please read the declaimers given with this write up from their own blurb.

  • I had to accompany my mother to this damn vaitheeswaran koil about 16 years ago, and we went through this fraud, shelling out plenty of money. Even back then, there was a thriving a/c hotel (or at least plenty of fans) in that village for visitors like us.
    At the same time, we also spent over an hour in the “house” of a low income worker (I think) having dinner. You know another tragedy of this place? The lower economic class people in the village live poverty stricken, old-world lives while the scammers make hay. In another of these old world villages we went to, there was a special practice. The woman of the (hosting) house would not dine with us. She had to eat after the man finished, IN THE SAME PLANTAIN LEAF HE LEAVES BEHIND. Every freaking day. Such are the ways of the great old world.

  • Hi Prof.Nayak, Do you take precautions when you do such encounters? I think cheats donot hesitte doing anything when they are exposed.

    • Sandeep, we were a group of five people with locals from Chennai too. Please go through my last one- the science of nadi jotidam on nirmukta, there is a link to that in this write up. We had a confrontation but nothing happened, the reader(of the leaves) got angry, walked out, we waited for couple of minutes for him to return and then went away. We had not paid that man at all but he was so furious that he walked away in a huff with the leaves under his arm! The secret is in body language and building up a credible story before hand.

  • Mr.Vasudev, I find it absolutely appalling that you would be not be an advocate for change. There are people who are desperate for peace and mental happiness and might do anything to reach that end. Believing in something that cannot be proven or correctly established even if it gives you a brief reprieve of content, doesn’t change the fact that you are living under a delusion. And there are unscrupulous characters who know that the whole thing is a sham, but that doesn’t stop them from fooling other people. You can’t honestly expect me to believe that they actually believe in the crap that they are peddling. This is just like the Christian faith healers who prey on sick and desperate people. Telling the people that they are being suckered sounds like a harsh thing; but it is like showing how a magic trick is done- it robs the illusion of awe, but it shows the deceit and sleight of hand. I commend the work Nayak is doing and I wholeheartedly commend his courage and ethos.

    • They have told bull shit about me calling it as an ‘exact science’ what more do you need? Please read my last write up about that written three years ago. I could see lots of not so well off people there with medical problems conducting rituals to get cures for their diseases.I do not need to remind people repeatedly that they make you wait when they ‘search’ for your leaves, use cold reading techniques etc. to tell things ‘accurately’ about those who are whose fortunes are being told!

  • Great work. Iam just a bit baffled with commentators on your article. You have provided all proof and experience and yet people cannot digest it. I think they should volunteer to accompany you on your next trip. Iam sure it will be a blockbuster TV Serial “Exposed” if you can find a producer and travel around India exposing such people using actors.
    On same note, I have experienced Naadi and must say that there are genuine ones also. The identfying of a native is amazing but one shud be careful of future predictions.

  • I was approached by a foreigner to translate the Nadi readings in Tamil given by a Chennai based Jothidar. It’s simply outrageous to watch this overpolite crook fleecing my friend to the tune of 6.5 lakhs of rupees within a matter of 4 months for performing poojas and all ritauls in order to free the spell on him. I was unable to convince the victim of this fradulent practice as he was almost into some sort of delusion in extreme. Beware of Nadi Jothidars.

    • Oh ………..osho! he is great! He meant the logistic of human being as a universal mass, so their activity must harmonious with respect to the dynamics of the celestial bodies. Can you say, anywhere he mentioned about the third grade method to predicting the future as like this post discusses? There are probably more than 170 billion (1.7 × 1011) galaxies in the observable universe and our galaxy alone numbers some 200billion stars. So, now you must certainly realize, what osho offer to explain in his writings. Almost absurd to the present level of human conditions or we may achieve it when we reach the enlightened like Buddha. The matter is, if you become enlightened, you will not be requiring any astrology!!!! that is the state of super rationalist!!!

  • I’ve had my Nadi Read and was blown away. Not only but what it revealed but by how my life became unstuck and changed dramatically once the remedies prescribed were completed. If you go into something being skeptical and disbelieving, then that is the tone set for the entire experience. My advice? Seek with trust. lalita1008@gmail.com

  • why they choose astrology for testing.they can test doctors
    with the same”techniques”& make a voluminous report
    about it.that is more important & need of the hour too.
    it is clearly said in “jyotish” that if ur
    purpose is to “test” then u will land no where because who are u to test this divine science? what credentials u’ve to test this science. because it is easy target like hinduism in the hands of half-baked pseudo secular
    indians. i am not a astrologer but i studied a good deal
    & practically applying them.

    • so you make a claim and then say that you cannot test the claim because “who are you to test this divine science?” you always have an out. believe if it makes you feel good, but for us sceptics that is not good enough. because then you can believe anything on faith with the disclaimer that you cannot test it because “who are you to test it?”

      • absalutely right,
        there r so many things that we have to believe.otherwise such person will ask to his/her mother the proof of his/ her father…isnt it

        • It’s not necessary for us to believe that our parents are our actual parents. I honestly don’t care if the people who raised me are actually my parents or not. Because they raised me and that is what matters to me.

          On a scientific viewpoint, ‘Believing’ is no answer to any question.

          If a person doubts if his parents are not his actual parents, believing won’t really answer his question. It’d just hide the question in his mind. But it doesn’t answer it. And for him to actually get the answer, proof of some sort is needed.

          Sorry mate. You need to come up with something better.

  • Hey thanks for your reply. I may not believe all the facts that you have presented, but one reference regarding the past life of your master makes me believe that the entire thing would be a fraud!
    The guy whom I was referring in the previous article “The Exact Science of Nadi Jothidam”, who had his second baby aborted, had the same past life prediction as your master!!! OMG!!!!!!! Same brahmin born in Sri Lanka and spoiling a maid life! ROTFL!!!! I just couldn’t help believing that it is a modus operandi! Thanks for your article! I am just laughing things out!
    You should have seen my friends face on that day! He was totally dumbstruck on hearing all the stuffs and was constantly blabbering on this!
    Thanks for the article!

  • This guy Govi Jayaraman has upgraded himself to Swami Govi Jayaraman & has set up his ‘practice’ in Noida ( NCR ) !

    05 years down the line, he will call himself as Bhagwan Govi Jayaraman !

  • Sorry. Your method of testing is so wrong. Your approach is akin to putting water on mud and expecting a large explosion due to nuclear fusion. Since there is no explosion, the theory about nuclear fusion is bunk.

    You have to answer the questions correctly initially to locate the correct leaf, they cannot pick the right leaf unless you give them the right parameters. Also go to the right guy the one given in the link above. Further, they claim to be able to predict only with about 80% accuracy.

    Next with your limited tools you can say that the earth is flat. Method of testing: place a ball on flat surface, since it doesnt roll off, the earth is flat.

    Bravo!!!

  • Interesting article. I’m planning to visit one of these ‘nadi’ centers, to try and debunk the nonsense they peddle. (And get my mom off my case). Do you have any advice on how I can frustrate their attempts at cold reading?

    • Give wrong signals. Keep on frustrating them by saying no for everything. Finally they will get tired and throw you out. But, be careful about those accompanying you. They may let out secrets by their body language. Sorry I saw this comment a little late. But, you can call me on my cell no 094482 16343 for any urgent need. Please post here how it went on.

      • It was incredibly underwhelming. I expected some subtle form of cold reading or nuanced detection work. But these clowns are nowhere as sophisticated as that. They extract all the information from the victim by a series of yes/no questions about the same aspect after which anyone can deduce the truth.

        It was’t difficult to manipulate the ‘astrologer’, instead of just answer in the negative for all the questions, I gave him contradictory and confusing answers and deliberately feed him false information. And sure enough, when the ‘reading’ came out, it had all the embellishments I gave him. His attempt at cold reading was suggesting I had skin allergy (which I don’t) when he noticed I had acne on my face!

        I managed prove my point to my mom but I’m surprised at the number of people who fall for such a deceptively simple trick.

        • Great! I was also wondering how idiotic our people are to fall for these cheap stupid tricks of these charlatans. I could read their modus operandi in a few questions they asked and took the fellows for a ride. In the previous one http://nirmukta.com/2008/10/30/the-exact-science-of-nadi-jothidam/ I got the fellow so riled up that he walked out of his own shop!
          In this instance of course they laughed all the way to bank- for they got about 5,000 from the ‘rich Australian textile magnate’ for reading the leaves of the two of us!

          • It is strange that you call him fraud; when you feed him wrong information, expect wrong answers! was that so hard?

        • The zipper strip thing is so cool! I also love how you put the heart border unenerdath the polka dot patterned paper. I would never have thought to do that to break up the card. Very creative!

        • “I can remember “Life Begins at the Hop” and “Making Plans for Nigel” seemed to be on constant repeat ”I absolutely ADORED those two songs, and also played them repeatedly. I never would have thought you’d look back kindly on them.Nancy, I can’t imagine a better collection of tastes than cumin, plantain,and pepper-jack – and the recipe certainly does NOT need an extra layer of cheese covering it.

  • He should have had the right information and told me that what I had fed him was wrong.So, it makes it very clear that the information he got was from me and not from the leaves.

    • I’m not sure if that’s the way to go about it! They always get the parents names , dob etc right! Why don’t you try again, feed him with the right info [making sure you aren’t revealing anything like your mothers name or something] and see how much of what he says is true? But somehow the past life stories sound the same! 😀 Most are either from kumbakonam or the surrounding areas or Srilanka! Why not some better place in a better country! Sigh!! But please do check once again with the real info and see how far they get! My past (present life’s past was correct]. Future – No! Nowhere close! And this after doing all the poojas! And there is one astrologer! My folks swear by him! Would be awesome if you could prove he is a fake too!!

      • They keep asking you questions by process of elimination until they get the pas right. The process of cold reading makes them get the past right because your past is something which you already know and your reactions will always reveal the right answer.
        If you will let me know the address of your parents as(s)strologer and take care of he expenses involved, we could expose him. Please remember that investigating these things involves expenditure.

      • As Mr. Narendra said, the information they present to you is the information you give them. For example, if a Nadi fraudster was trying to get my name:

        Q) Does your name start with ‘A’?
        A) Yes

        <>

        Q) Does your name start with ‘Ab’?
        A) No

        <>

        Q) Does your name start with ‘An’?
        A) Yes

        <>

        Q) Does your name start with ‘Ani’?
        A) No
        .
        .
        …and so on until he finally has my name which he will dramatically ‘reveal’ towards the end of the session along with all other details he gleaned from this process of elimination. Because he doesn’t probe one area continuously, people fail to notice that they have inadvertently given up all the information themselves.

        I don’t really understand what you mean by “better place in a better country” but I would be happy to take on any Nadi fraudster in Hyderabad as long as you foot the fraudsters bill. While I understand the importance of reproducibility of results in an experiment, I really don’t see any reason why these fraudsters should be enriched in the process.

  • Hey, probably this person went to the wrong place, i had been the one in small kanchipuram town and was astonished by the way they clearly mentioned my DOB (English / Tamil) my name , my father & mother’s name and wife’s name very clearly without even a change in letters. how could this be possible, he did not ask me any relevant question, neither i get registered to his office or any site.

    Also they gave me a horoscope based on a song written in palm leave, which exactly matches with my original horoscope which they don’t have a copy

    like , wise people say either you believe it or not you are right.

    Kasiraman.S

    • I have been to 6 places including a research institute at Tambaram and they were bullshitting in all the places. You can also please check my last write up on this site itself- the science of Nadi joditam which was written several years back.

      • i have read all those comments , recently i & my wife had shown to one person he also told same story Srilank doctor …. bla bla…
        Inorder to get good thing you need to do poojas,10 k means they will do.
        if you dont belive us go to kumbakoma and do the poojas thier directly. we visted other persons where thats is correct or wrong same question they asked wantedly i have told few thing wrong so that person couldnt get all info from me so what ever questions he asked me i told yes he framed story. evenhe told my wife DOB wrong,i have showed my nadi 3 yrs back i told him to read it again that fellow told im busy i cant read it now.

        All these people just want to make money .Just they will know people will come only when they have problem so depending on that they will create stories. 1. NO Job 2 .Not getting marriage 3. No childrens 4. Health problem. 5 . Financial problem based on that they will frame stories
        Even in Bangalore lost of frauds are thier in Hebbal.

      • Dear Mr. Narendra,
        Thank you, I have just gone through your article. It is very interesting.
        Recently, I have taken my wife to one of the Shiv Nadi Jyothisyam at Visakhapatnam. He took the Left Thumb impression of my wife and asked to come after one day. On the next day, I got astonished, after one by one tala patra leafs, he could find one, in which, he found all my wife name, her parents name, age, parents age/ status, husband name, profession, no. children and their age so accurately.
        Again, he asked us to visit next day, for writing all the information in a book and also to suggest the remedies.
        On the next day, he explained all about this life and future life and suggested to perform some rituals for remedies. He suggested mostly all rituals to be done at Tamilnadu Temples. I found the future prediction is more generous in way.
        Basically, I don’t believe at all in horoscope readings. Again, to get confidence, I went to him and asked to take up mine and he took my right thumb impression and searched some leafs and could not get mine. He said, he will get some more leafs in the next month and will thy to find from them.
        To get my full confidence, I have to wait till next month.
        Thanks & regards

  • Sorry to disappoint you, but I have had a totally different Nadi experience not in this place though but in Hyderabad. So far 80-90% predictions were spot on. In the process I went through, the person was sifting leaves one after the other reading the probable case like.. name begins with ‘x’, has only father.. married sister .. is it true? if I say no, he moved through another leaf.. Finally he was able to corner one for me that matched my profile i.e, name, mother name, father name, nakshatra, DOB, marital status, job status. Amazingly, it gave clues about my father’s impending accident that was to happen 19 months later, my sisters marriage and my change of job. Even about my marriage it happened..
    Anyone can prove anything as wrong.. if you go to a doctor and give wrong symptoms.. the diagnosis will obviously be wrong.. of course..the doctor also matters..
    May be that fellow was wrong!!

    • I checked out the nadi reading at Goa because by brother challenged me. I gave only my thumb with no details. We spoke in konkani there so the tamilians could not understand. They were reading the leaves like a railway time- table. They came spot on with the exact first names of both my parents . After that I misled them because i did not want to divulge personal details.
      Their predictions were all false and went back and told them so.

      But i still can’t understand how they got the names right.Was it telepathy?
      Even the car was parked far away so they had no time to take the number and check out RTO. Many of friends did the same trick. Past was at least 30% correct for most . like telling correct names, number of children profession etc.but future was useless.

  • Sir my friend padu checked this nadi research at chidambaram. NADI JITHIDHAR said his name,fether and mother nane corretly. HE did not believe his past. Then he invited his Muslim Friend and one Canadian friend for nadi prediction at CHIDAMBARAM I. E the same nadi jothidar. NADI EXPERT sain the Muslim friend name ,and tough name of father name and gave one caseet ten years ago. The same person found the name of Canadian,very tough father name and mother name of Canadian, Everybody astonished…. HOW THEY FIND FATHER NAME OF CANADIAN.. WAS THERE ANY TRICK.. HOW THEY READ THE MIND ALSO.. I am not believing the nadi jothidam but it is a fact.. What magic they use.. Thay are collecting money for parigaram are reasonable,.. Moreover they would not compel for parigaram or guru donation. So kindly reserch and tell me how they are correct in most of the case,, How AGASTHIYAR wrote all those pale.. WHERE was the time. But future tense prediction may be write or wrong . We have to wait and see or they dont want to tell the future tense correctly. Who is the thief of my bracelet.. Can I ask him instead of going to police, Pl. think and inform to my e.mail even in the web site

  • Please find the truth and inform me quickly because I want to go there to research the subject . How they know our father and grand father name.. Otherwise my grand father went there (CHITHAMBARAM) those days and gave these particulars, Please inform me because u analyse some things with wrong particulars,please go their and check your personal or friend’s case with belief. thanks for your investigation. Kindly check onceagain and tell eme before I go,sirs/madams

    • Go there research and then get back to me. I have gone to a number of these places and found out that they were doing cold reading. Please find out who took you there and got the appointment.

  • I also went to veetheswaram koil in the month of jun 13 and met with M ALEXANDER nadi astrologist(04364279844 OFFICE NO 9443601690 MOB NO) . then i was directed to a translator after taking thump impression and date of birth of my whole family.then he asked so many question.but he could not tell even my name. But he told my father & mother’s name clearly of my previous birth and told that your father was a Ayurveda doctor. at the age of 17-18 your father expired so whole the responsibilities came to your soldiers and you were confused, what to do. Ultimately you started your father business but u were not having the knowledge of Ayurveda and u given the wrong medicine to old aged person and pregnant ladies and due to this some old persons were died and pregnant ladies were aborted. due to previous birth sin u are facing difficulties in this birth and it can be solved by doing some puja by our guruji and sindur etc will be sent by post. when i asked the expenditure he gave me three option. a. 6000/-b. 8000/-c. 10000/-i refused to pay and told that i dont have money at present (as already he had taken 4600/- for all this.) he told you dont have the atm card. i said, no. then he said that some amount now u can deposit with me , so i can start pooja from tomorrow,rest money u can send later on. i said, this time u leave this. at any other occasion i will think. then he said , it will not be possible, now only it can be done.overall, i taken my 400/- rs back as i paid 5000/- to him and came back by spending 5500/-Rs with no result.This i narrating here because i have been cheated there so i don’t want that some body should go there,because they have opened a plenty of shops there for cheating the innocent peoples. Dur to scarcity of time i am writing in short if somebody want to clearify , he can contact me.

  • Nadi Jodidham is simply a bullshit.These are the kinds of people who put fears and doubts(only to ignorants)and bring disgrace to an otherwise rich culture of Tamilnadu.

    V
    Bangalore.

    • Such people are there everywhere and this country has a rich cultural tradition. No need to be apologetic about these things. I had gone to this place to specifically expose these guys for a documentary. You could see my previous write up on this-The science of nadi jotidam which was written years before this.

  • Hi.. I have been to Nadine joshyam n vaitheeswaran temple twice. Thy juz make nonsense note of wat v telling. Juz by guess thy proving it.bcz both tyms I went to same place n got different predictions. N I went in chennai in mylapore there thy told my future husband name. Still I m not married . May b in future let me c.but my frnd also seen n mylapore n surprisingly she got same name which has been read out . I don be live these stuffs. Waste of money

    • Probably when you get married you can get your husbands name changed to make it come true!Jokes apart, I fail to understand why people fall for this stuff despite of our telling them again and again and proving it so be nonsense.

  • hi, i want to share this, my friends got some good predictions at vaitheeswaran temple. it makes me to visit there and i went to the same nadi josiya centre. at first they told many things in assumptions. but one surprising news they predict my lovers name very accuratly and also my father name. they also predict the back pain of my mother. i dont know wat is happening there, but they are some thing different from other fraud josiyars in our country.

  • Well.. hmm… I had my nadi read when I was 27 (5 yrs ago). Just heard it, my interest peaked and I want to go in for another reading! I, personally, had my father’s name, mother’s name, sister’s name, and would be wife’s name (quite close was the guess actually and it is not at all a common name), names of my in-laws were all given quite accurately! I did not hear it when I got it read. I wanted to hear it all only after 5 yrs, and thats just what I did and I am astounded! Many predictions were off (particularly in timing) but many were dead accurate. I myself am surprised. Too bad there are too many frauds, but for me, it peaks interest and prompts more investigation.

    • They will trap you into performing pujas to undo your negative karma.Runs into thousands. This is a big money spinning racket….

      Just hear your predictions & move out.

      • Hi,

        I beleive it, they told my father’s, mother’s name correctly. And when i went i was not married, they told my husbands name correctly. Because now i can tell it was very correct. we cannot tell totally as a fraud.

  • HYE

    ME TOO HAD VISITED VAITHEESVARAN TEMPLE 2 YEARS BACK. THEY WERE ABLE TO FIND MY PAST AND FAMILY BACK GROUND. I AM FROM GUJARAT, INTERESTINGLY, ME TOO A LEARNER OF JOTHIDHAM. MY FATHER WAS WELL KNOWN ASTROLOGER OF OUR LIVING SARROUNDINGS. HE DIED 10 YEARS BACK. I WAS SURPRISED WHEN THE NADI READER COULD PREDICT ABOUT MY POPS NAME,PROFESSION AND FAME IN OUR CITY. BUT FOR THE FUTURE LET US WAIT AND SEE. BUT REMARKABLE THINGS ARE, THE PALM CONTAINS HOROSCOPE,DATE OF BIRTH,DAY, WHICH CAN NOT BE CALCULATED WITHOUT COMPUTERS ASSISTANCE IN PALM READING MOMENT. AND IT TEND TO ACCEPT THAT THE NAME,DOB,HOROSCOPE AND LAKHNAM (TOB) CAN APPEAR CO INCIDENTLY IN SPECIFIC LEAF. YES I ACCEPT THAT IT HAS THE BUSINESS FACE IN ITSELF. BUT THIS CANNOT BE WHOLLY RUBBISH..

  • Dear Narendra Sir,
    As asked for , I have read this article of yours. For the benefit of all readers of this link, may I take liberty to paste the comment made on the other write up link on the same topic?

    Dear Friends,

    Ram commented on the write up there…

    “They have a secret source for fetching this information. Passport has parents information. Maybe these people may know someone from immigration. or maybe they have contacts to all hotels.” — Ram…

    comments by me

    I agree with Ram, for the sake of arguments, that there may be something like that for the persons staying in Hotels or arriving from abroad etc, but those who come just like that from within country, uninformed, from the homes or not from hotels. WHAT ABOUT THEM?

    I happened to read an article titled “It was written”. The author casually called his friend to a Naadi Center as it was convenient point to meet for both of them. While waiting for, the friend casually asked Naadi center to take out any Naadi leaf for him, if possible.
    Later, unexpectedly a leaf of ‘Brahma sooksma Naadi’ for his friend was found. On the request, the photographs of the long palmleaf were taken. And the names of the concerned persons were dotted for easy recognition.

    If demanded by the readers and permitted by the moderator,to present article, he and any interested readers may contact me (email yogvivek55@gmail.com ) If agreed by the moderator, will provide the article on this forum. I presume, without reading the article Prof. Nayak and others, will not debunk my remarks.
    Let us come togather to know more. By negating we lose possibilities for research or study, of these palm leaves more closely. Is there any thing really written on the claimed palm leaves? If yes, what is it? Can debunkers groups come forward to seriously find what is it written on the palm leaves? Does it have some message really written? If so what is it? I request readers of this faculty to form a study group to unveil the writings on these palm leaves.

    to this Raj commented…

    Yogvikek, If you want to study this, you need to get those Nadi folks to cooperate , provide copy of the leaves and so on. When I asked them, they refused . If you can get one of those Nadi folks to aggree to a controlled experiment/study, I am sure Dr. Nayak will participate.
    I think you will find that most of those leaves are fake, the so called ancient tamil scripts might just be telling somthing like “Gopal ate 2 kg of rice” or something mundane. Or it could just be a random scribbling…..

    My reply

    Raj quote… I think you will find that most of those leaves are fake, the so called ancient tamil scripts might just be telling somthing like “Gopal ate 2 kg of rice” or something mundane. Or it could just be a random scribbling…..

    my comment…

    These are all assumptions…

    For person of scientific temper and investigator, these assumptions are needed to be examined with hardcore evidence. And the result should be discussed in this forum.

    you need to get those Nadi folks to cooperate , provide copy of the leaves and so on.

    Nadi centers do provide notebook without asking for, some centers give on demand, According to them, it is the exact reproduction of what is written in the palmleaf. Cassette gives meaning and interpretation of what is written in the note book.

    Who could be better person than Narendra ji? He has visited several Nadi centers on different occasions. He has the knack to extract the required documents from them. I am sure by now he is in possession of many Notebooks, the nadi centers provide, in addition to CD or Cassette. These are the evidences provided by the center, with these evidences be verified by him withe help of experts in the field…
    ——

    Now here, I request to the readers specially to those, who are good in Tamil Scripts and literature can decipher the text from the Notebooks and share the information to all. It is said by the nadi centers, that these matters on palm leaf are written poetic form. They follow certain form of pattern as per Tamil literature.
    This will help Narandra ji to unveil the secrets of the nadi.

  • Dear Narendra Sir,
    Thanks for guiding me to refer the photos you had appended to the link. Thanks for that. That means, I am sure you are also possessing the pages of verses written about you and other persons with whom you had gone to investigate the matter.
    You can take the help of the Tamil knowing experts to unveil the meaning of the verses written there for you for the assumed names.
    I hereby make appeal to all Tamil knowing persons to extend their services to Narendra Sir, for reading verses and meaning their off. Whether is it the same what is told in the cassette or not could be told by them.

  • Dear Dr. Narendra Nayak Sir,
    Now one month has passed. Hope you have started exploring matter written on the nadi palm leaf.
    Many will thank you for your views on the matter obtained from palm leaves. And from the notebook supplied by nadi readers.

  • I had read the leaves when I was seeing my Naadi joshiyam in vaithiwsran kovil. My parents name were already inscribed on the leafs. Mindyou I am a Bengali and the names are uncommon for south indians. I belief it is some kind ancient science. For me it is seeing is believe.

  • “The recordings are with the people who shot them- the Australian TV people. Any way, I am quite fluent in Tamil and have followed perfectly what they said.”
    Dear Sir,
    Great to know your command over Tamil language and scripts! Sir, you can easily read note books provided after leaf is searched. Easily one can catch if the note books do not mention the details of the client.
    May I know your views on this notebook reading.?

  • Hi Mr. Nayak,
    I trust naadi but generally I first verify it. I like your idea of being sceptical and verifying it but I think the way you experimented it was wrong.If you go with a cooked up details and try to push him to find a similar detail defintely the guy might come up with a cooked up leaf for you.
    I have been through a similar situation.But the way I experimented was on a fact that all answers has to be correct on one naadi leaf only then it is yours!!So before the question session itself..I clearly told the astrologer that if you ask me a question and if i don;t want to answer that(like whether I am married or not) I will just pass that question and we will try the next question. in this way I avoided giving him any information which I was expecting him to predict. And you will be surprised to know that a leaf was found which had details about my name/wife, parents name etc etc..the only information which did not match was on the profession of my mother(she is a housewife) and so the leaf was rejected..
    That was really surprising.
    Rgds,
    Rajeev

    • rajeev,

      **I trust naadi but generally I first verify it.**

      What exactly do you mean by trust here? What exactly is that you do with this trust? Can you give some examples.

      • What I meant by trust is the capability of Sages to see hidden things such as someone’s future or past births.
        This trust helps you be more focussed on clear understanding that this world is not only what you see with your eyes!!

        • **What I meant by trust is the capability of Sages to see hidden things such as someone’s future or past births.**

          **I trust naadi but generally I first verify it.**

          How do you verify that the Sages can see the hidden things like future and past birth?

          • Sir,
            Please don’t play with words. I suggested an anamoly in the way you conducted the test and published your results.
            I am not a superstition person. Assuming I have some small and basic knowledge of science and being a Signal Integrity Engineer for more than 12 years, I am only suggesting you to make your experiment more robust so that things can be evaluated in a better way..every scientific experiement is done in a very closely monitored environment and minimizing different variables. My only intention was to minimize some of variables in your experiment. If you feel your scientific zeal doesn;t like your experiment to be questioned, it is surely up to you….

          • Rajeev,

            **Assuming I have some small and basic knowledge of science and being a Signal Integrity Engineer for more than 12 years**

            You do not know the first thing about science.

            You should read Satish’s comment directed at another one of your foolish comments.

    • This is not my first experience with Nadi. If you could go back in this, the first time was in 2009 and I have put it down here as The science of Nadi jotidam.

      • In all professions in this world, you will find different kind of people. if some of those people are fraud that doesn’t make that profession fraud.

        That conclusion is premature. Even the basic fundamental of science says that even if you find even one example which proves a particular theory wrong, the theory should be left aside. If science says there are no rebirths or future predictions but even then there can be recoreded examples which proves the opposite, science explanation fall flat!

        • @Rajeev

          I don’t wish to be harsh on you but you are trivializing science and scientific method by making overly simplistic and silly statements.

          You said:
          “If science says there are no rebirths or future predictions”

          Science does not make any such predictions Claims of rebirth and infallible predictability are made in religion and other forms of superstition.

          Skeptics seek to evaluate these claims by means of science and other empirical methods. But they eventually none of the claims can be supported by these methods. Let alone conclusive evidence or support, there is not even reasonable or normal levels of evidential or empirical support for these claims.

          Since these claims are abnormal and extraordinary, they would be classified as paranormal. But they are fully capable of inquiry and investigation and this is being done the world over.

          Paranormal investigators(Dr. Nayak is a very reputed and able paranormal investigator of India) look at all aspects of examples claimed to support the paranormal phenomenon. But so far all those examples and arguments after examination have turned out to be hoaxes or delusions.
          You then said:
          “but even then there can be recoreded examples which proves the opposite, science explanation fall flat!”

          Where are those recorded examples of rebirth other than in fairy tales and epics? Every religion and culture routinely makes these claim, but provides no evidence for these.

          Belief in superstition continues but that does not constitute a failure of science or its theory.

          • “Where are those recorded examples of rebirth other than in fairy tales and epics? Every religion and culture routinely makes these claim, but provides no evidence for these”

            Please google and you will find documentaries of BBC and other reputed channels where people have studied rebirth cases in details.If something can’t be explained right now with the given set of scientific tools that doesn’t it can’t be proved in future and that has always been the case…

          • Please google and you will find documentaries of BBC and other reputed channels where people have studied rebirth cases in details.

            Documentaries are not science. In science there are a set of processes to find whether a hypothesis is correct or not. The rebirth hypothesis just doesn’t have any credible evidence at all. Given that is your who brought up rebirth, the burden of proof is on you to show the evidence. Acceptable evidence would be studies published in high-impact journals. Even better if those results have been replicated by independent teams.

            If something can’t be explained right now with the given set of scientific tools that doesn’t it can’t be proved in future and that has always been the case…

            That is a logical fallacy called appeal to ignorance.

    • BusyBee > 絲打, 我睇高登, 話好戲量個 "表演", 除了瞓響個地唔知做乜 Q 之外, 仲有個女仔 "做六十四下掌上壓然後好辛苦", 真係 DKLM.究竟呢個劇團點解仲生存到?

  • Let us have a really more objective test of Nadi jotidam. Since the wise rishi munis have already put down the future in their leaves let any one who wants to verify join this test with me. We could go to any nadi practitioner qs it would be already pre ordained as to who shall read my future it has to be right choice, I shall have a sealed envelop with things inside, particularly things like currency notes and papers with things written on them, let my leaves be searched for(it would not be difficult as it would have been pre ordained)and tell the contents. I would be glad to award one million rupees to the person taking up the challenge. Only one precondition the challenger will have to place with me a refundable deposit of 1% of the amount(ten thousand rupees) which will be refunded along with the prize money if the predictions are right. Otherwise this amount will be forfeited.
    All those who ahve confidence in their so called ‘science’ can come forward and take this challenge instead of engaging in futile discussions. Any takers?

    • Dear Dr. Narendra Sir,
      Hope you will not suppress the reply.
      …….
      Happened to get some written material of one person Martin Kola from Czech Rep. while reading your remark about article by non believer group.
      His leaf was found in Prague. In his leaf some description regarding him was given. In addition, a sentence was seen that you may not be aware by You were my Disciple in past life called Machha (Muni). Machha Munihas authored Naadi palm leaves which are available in some centers in Tamilnadu. He is revered by many. Here in this leaf Maharishi Agasthya says to this Martin, “You desired to meet me hence I have arrived in your country!” these stanzas were written in normal readable Tamil in a notebook. A friend, expert in Tamil script and language had translated the same verses where in his and his parent and spouse’s names are mentioned.

      However these die hard Skeptics will never rethink on these scripts as they have already closed this case for further srcritiny…

      The Script is appended below:-

      ஒத்துவரும் செய்பாக்கியம் பின்னுமுண்டு
      ஓதமகன் மார்ட்டின்தான் தந்தைபேரும்

      நத்தும்தாய் யெனா மோனிகாயில்லாள்
      நலமாய்வும் முப்பானும் பஞ்சச்சார்பில்…
      ottuvarum ceypākkiyam piṉṉumuṇṭu
      otamakaṉ mārṭṭiṉtāṉ tantaiperum
      nattumtāy yeṉā moṉikāyillāḷ
      nalamāyvum muppāṉum pañcaccārpil…

      You shall beget children supporting your faith and belief even in the future too. Thus you, your name shall be Martin – which shall be same as your father’s name. Your mother’s name shall be Yena and Monica shall be your wife. You shall, at around your age of thirty and five, come to analyze your Nadi predictions.

      வினைசிறப்பும் என்சீடா நீயேமச்சா
      விரும்பிஉனை உன்தேசம் தனில்காண
      இணையாகும் வசதிகளும் குடும்பமுண்டு
      இல்லவளும் அன்பொத்து காலம்மட்டும்…
      viṉaiciṟappum eṉcīṭā nīyemaccā
      virumpiuṉai uṉtecam taṉilkāṇa
      iṇaiyākum vacatikaḷum kuṭumpamuṇṭu
      illavaḷum aṉpottu kālammaṭṭum…

      My disciple, you are Machcha. With a desire to meet you, look I have come to your country! You are already blessed with completeness of life; in addition to that you also have a loveful consent from your wife, such is the present situation in your life.

      ….

      Hope, you will not decline to study the contents and submit the report in this forum due to preoccupation etc.If not you, your Tamil knowing friends may help you in this regard. Further study could be conducted later on…

      • Simple macha. The reply would have the same in any country, England, France,Germany or Utopia for hat matter!
        I do hope that Maharishi Agastya has a leaf for me which can be brought to Mangalore and says that macha, you were my disciple in last life and you have a sealed currency note to test me whose denomination is—– and its serial number is———! If the answer is right, I will agree that Nadi is a great science.
        Go ahead and do that macha. I promise you that I will not suppress your answer. Besides, macha you can also earn 10 lakhs(subject to deduction of income tax as applicable). But, the only catch is that you will have to keep 1% of this amount as caution deposit which you will forfeit if the answer is wrong.
        If you win you will get it back with my ten lakhs after deducting income tax as applicable. Go ahead and do it macha. Nan ready irukkaren. Anda leaf Tamille irundalum no problem. Nan simple Tamil padikkaren. All the best to you and Agastyar maharishi.

  • I am sure nobody has the guts to take up this challenge. But its easy to fool the society, the Nadi Jyotishis are doing a thriving business.

  • Hello All,

    I truly honour everyone here who are investing their respective time for this.
    Having read the above discussion regarding the NADI Astrology now I am stuck in the middle.
    Please someone guide with me more links/material whether these Nadi predictors are fake or real.
    How can someone play with someone`s life path.
    I am stuck with very important Decisions which could change the course of my LIFE/CAREER/LIFE PARTNER path. Hence I thought to seek help from this study.
    but after googling, I am back to square one.
    and now I am in tears, as a friend of mine paid around 5K for a puja suggested by one of NADI Astrologer`s in Pune.Now I am not sure whether he played foul/suggested everything wrong and duped us with 5K.
    Please Help.

    • Sorry that you lost 5k.

      **am stuck with very important Decisions which could change the course of my LIFE/CAREER/LIFE PARTNER path. **

      Do not seek guidance from astrologers, pujas, and prayers when making decisions. Take a pen and paper instead. Write down all possible options (example: if are making decision to buy a car then the options would be 1) New car 2) Used car 3) Just take the bus). You should be able to do something similar for all decisions. Next step is to do a cost benefit analysis for each of the options (For the car buying example, 1) New car will cost more upfront but will have low maintenance cost 2) Used car has low upfront fees but high maintenance fee 3) Bus is the cheapest option but you have less mobility). Based on the cost benefit analysis you should be able to pick the best option. You can also have friend look at your analysis as a sanity check.

      All you need is a pen, paper, and a friend. No astrologer, spiritual guides, or pujas needed.

        • If completely lost and can’t think, toss a coin.
          If you have lots of dough and on the brink of suicide, go to any conman…. astrologer, naadi etc. They will keep you hopeful. Losing money is referable to losing life.

          With time ,you will make a natural decision… nature will decide for you.

  • You are poorer by 5k period. Why dont you contribute something to our movement than waste on things ;like poojas suggested by these thugs. I am sure they would have suggested to you also the person who will do the thing for you and got the kick back from that person too.
    So, be careful when you go for ‘suggestions’ from these frauds. What they do is a technique called as cold reading and there is write up of mine on this site about the same which you can refer to if you want.

  • @ Rishi kesh,
    @ Capt Mandrake,
    Advice that you should be depending on your wisdom and abilities is very apt.
    Naadi Jyotishya is a tool to decide certain future stocks. You may or may Not listen.
    I, along with some friends are exploring matter written on Naadi palmleaf. Is there any thing really written or is it grabbling without any meaning?
    The study reveals such writings have specific patterns and substance.
    Case study of Martin Kola was part of that study. He provided note book given to him for his leaf reading. Some indology experts have been studying script and language used in narration.
    Whether it is written by many Naadi Maharishis or by scroundrals like Naadi readers needs investigation.
    Skeptics are more interested to debunk astrology aspects. We have no problems about that.
    We expect them to come forward to study the literary aspects. Why they avoid and throw challenges at us?
    If they conduct examination of Naadi Literature many will Welcome… I hope.
    I am not supportive of any wrong doings by Naadi Center readers.

    • Thanks for the clarifications -due to limitations of language I would not be interested in the literary aspects of Nadi. I have been looking at that from the point of view of a skeptic and investigator.
      I am very sorry to say that as a method of either telling the past or predicting the future it has failed miserably period.

      • You went to a FAKE NADI guy. I went to a good NADI, he did not ask too many questions to look like collecting information. But he told exactly my parents names and told my name ( like hinting, like my name contains a name of SURYAN.

        Any way I am still waiting to see FUTURE predictions. But I know some friends in whose case future predictions came TRUE.

        It all depends on where you went. Since everybody’s nadi leaf is NOT available + lot of FAKE NADI people ( shops ) are there, this Sastra got bad name period.

        • Gentlemen, Even I did not believe this. Yes. Mr Ravi is right. The “shiva jyothidam” guy told told me and my wife everything about our date of birth,parents name,date of marriage,No of children and their profession,Our profession etc.,no of siblings and so on. Whatever hea said about the past were 100 %correct. I did not ask about the future.But Though Past is 100%, future is not to that extent, as I am told others. Interested can have it checked at Nagpur and stationed at Telecom nagar. Following me my SILs and BILs also had the same experiences.

          Just to test I had been to the place in South India.There it is very very difficult to find a good guy on this.

          Leave it to the believers and non believers to ….

  • Dear Sir,
    You call your self as skeptic & investigater. Have taken pains of writing articles on Nadi Granthas. Now to say, ‘due to limitations of’ Language’ I won’t be interested ‘ is a lame execuse! That you have bad experiences, but many claim to have positive results.
    As a true investigater you are to get assistance from Tamil language scholars to verify written matter.
    You have great following. They look upon you to set an example. In their eyes you will be a big let down!
    Late B. Premanand, your Guruji too wanted to verify the text when he was called to do so.
    Without hurting your feelings, may I humbly request you to take lead in Tamil script reading.? This may provide Opportunities to propogate your point of view against malpracticing Naadi readers if any.

    • Yogvivek,

      I’m sorry to say this so bluntly, but you’re being annoying. Heckling Dr. Nayak won’t do anything. If you want to do these things, you’re free to do them yourself.

      But Dr. Nayak is a busy man. I’m not sure why you think inundating him with posts will make him respond. He’ll just get ticked off.

    • Yogvivek,

      First, we should all be thankful for the work Narendra Nayak has done. But debunking every quack is not his job. It is not even feasible. If your takeaway from his work is that the naadi astrologers he debunked are the only quacks out there and that there may be other naadi astrologers who are genuine then you are falling for the no true Scotsman fallacy.

      If you think that naadi astrology works then the burden is on you to show us how it works with supporting evidence. I strongly suspect you will not be able to do it.

    • On topic is one of Christopher Hitchens’ essay on the last Harry Potter book in the collection “Arguably.”

      If you’ve read the Harry Potter book, you might recall that after learning about the Deathly Hallows, Hermione is trying to convince Harry and Ron that they aren’t real
      She says something to the effect of:

      “Of course I can’t prove that it’s not real, what do you expect me to do, test every single rock in the world to see if it revives the dead? You can say that practically anything exists if the only criterion is that it hasn’t been disproven!”

      • Basava,

        Here is Hithches review of Deathly Hallows on NYTimes. Is this what is in the “Arguably” collection?

        http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/12/books/review/Hitchens-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

        “How can I possibly prove it doesn’t exist? Do you expect me to get hold of — of all the pebbles in the world and test them? I mean, you could claim that anything’s real if the only basis for believing in it is that nobody’s proved it doesn’t exist.”

        • Yes, that is the one. I am sure that all of the essays in “Arguably” can individually be found on the Internet, but suckers like me still buy the book 🙂

          • Lol! I was hoping there was more in it. But you saved me a trip to the library. The review was quite a fun read. He nicely eviscerates Rowling. The 7th book was quite contrived and deserved to be mocked. Wish he had also critiqued the ridiculous rules of Quidditch.

  • Yogvivek,

    The problem of Naadi jotisham or astrology is not a question of interpreting vattaletu or other ancient or obscure Tamil script in which those palm leaves are supposedly written. Even if according to you some expert and seasoned Tamil linguists are required and even a formal linguistic research is required to unravel the script of Naadi, that still raises the question of how Naadi center functionaries and quacks can read and interpret those leaves and make accurate claims about someone’s past, present and future.

    Naadi system faces a much bigger problem and challenge. Its whole premise and foundation is bunk and complete poppycock. That it is based on a 5000 year old times Rishi writing details and predictions on thousands of leaves to be used in a time when the population of India itself is in billions and that it was specifically written only for those who would visit the centre is a completely bogus and laughable premise. The whole process starting with the identification of leaves is itself a giveaway of fraud and deception. If the name, DOB and other markers of identification are in Vattaletu, what chance do today’s Tamils have of identifying whose name is written or whether any name is written at all or is it just scribble-scrabble.

    Other than Shashikant Oak, there seem to be very few brave-hearts who can stand up and be counted as researchers of this hocus-pocus ‘science’. His comparison of nadi writings to Nostradamus should make sensible people smell a rat. If that cattle feed of palm leaves has so much naadi relevant information, why not make it part of a museum or history centre and a formal study or research be done.

    Our ASI or research bodies should be able to do proper dating of those palm leaf manuscripts and determine and publish the names and details of the persons mentioned in the palm leaves. The fact that nothing of this is done does show that this has very little cultural or historical value and is simply an excuse for fooling and defrauding gullible people.

    Dr. Nayak and his team has done a lot of painstaking work for skeptical expose of this fraud and scam and people need to learn and benefit from it, instead of throwing all this language and antiquity red herrings that people like you are doing.

    If this had happened in Europe or the Anglo-Saxon part of the world, a few lawsuits and complaints from scammed victims would have bankrupted these naadi fraudsters and put and an end to their nonsensical charade of astrology. Only in India we can have this kind of BS with TN state tourism promoting it without any disclosures and disclaimers. Just because we have ancient culture and history does not mean that we fall for anything labelled as ancient.

    • **That it is based on a 5000 year old times Rishi writing details and predictions on thousands of leaves to be used in a time when the population of India itself is in billions **

      Lol! Another thing I was thinking about was this. How much information can actually be packed in a couple of lines scribbled on piece of leaf of dimension 1 in X 8 in? Our ancients seemed to have figured out a way to write about our past present and future lives into such small space.

  • I have spoken to quite a few of these nadi people and they have told me that the leaves are re-written once in a while as they do deteriorate! Again, it was their claim that they go the temple every morning, where by some miraculous way of prediction the leaves of those who are going to visit them are given to each one! They also say that usually they have the records of those who are going to visit them because of this system. However, once in a way that may fail and so they have to go back to get the leaves. It was also said that in extremely rare cases the leave of some may not be there at all and with this encyclopedia of excuses to fall back upon whatever happens can be always explained!
    I have already spent days trying to find out their modus operandi and am very sure that it is only cold reading. if any one wants to me spend more time- sorry, no as I have been convinced that it is a fraud and I have better things to do than follow this mirage of a method of telling the past, future and present by consulting leaves!
    I do hope that all these people whoa are so sure of the ‘scientific validity’ of nadi can just convince me by reading the serial number of a sealed currency note which the author would have known when he wrote them about me. Well, having miserably failed in finding out that the person sitting right in front of them is misleading, what better can we expect from them? I am sure that has been because I am good at not giving away things through my body language.
    To all of you who keep on advancing your useless arguments and justifications for the belief in the irrational stupidity of having records of billions of people in a small room on leaves -proof of the pudding is the eating, convince me by a fool proof method and you shall have me on your side and a million rupees of mine. The only catch is that to be eligible for this you will have to deposit with me 1% of that amount as earnest money which shall be returned to you along with the prize money if the prediction is right. Instead of wasting time on futile arguments do it and show me. I am very sure that none you have the guts enough to take this as you yourselves do not have confidence in the system which you so highly extol. However, I am fully confident that your attempt will be a flop even if you summon the resources to take it up. Well, the ball is in your court let me see what you do with it.

  • Narendra,

    I have a question for you. Does your work get covered in mainstream local language newspaper and magazines? Do you get to write op-ed pieces in such publications. I surely hope your work reaches Indians who can not read English.

    • Yes. Some do translate and put things from here.I do write in Kannada some times when specifically invited. The problem is that I cannot type in regional languages I have to write it down and make a jpeg file and mil it to them. But, any one is welcome to do that.
      I get a lot of coverage from the ‘mainstream media’ on issues and events. There have invitations to write columns but I do write one for Mangalore Today since I have been doing it since years.

  • The readers in vaiteeswaran koil are fraud. They are cheating people by telling lies. They get all answers from the people and clubbing all the info and gave the same back to the people and say that is the leaf. If some question the same , they come back and say they couldn’t t find the leaf. COMPLETE FAKE

  • Your claim of Fraud of Nadi Jothidam.

    Dear Sir, with due respect to all those who have taken such efforts, almost 17 years ago I came across NADI and had one reading from the center at Tambaram. I was intrigued by the level of details including details about my mother in law and my brother’s occupation etc. and some of the information which was extremely personal of nature.

    This intrigued me and I have had two more readings at a place in Ashok Nagar done about two years apart.

    My interest has been more to figure out what is the method behind this than trying to debunk anything.

    Once my wife who does not believe in this kind of stuff and another time my brother who is an extreme sceptic happened to be along with me. We had their readings done as well.

    We took extreme care not to reveal dates and names etc, answering questions very guardedly.

    Again there wss a fair consistency with the previous reading with the last reading being the most accurate. Much of it was futuristic. Well I had forgotten about it.

    Recently, I came across the notes that I had made of their predictions for every period of 2 -3 years and I am rather amazed at the way that things have come to be, including child birth in the family, specific surgeries, injuries etc, job changes etc.

    I have no doubt that there are charlatans willing to exploit anything and make a fast buck. But, I will wait for some one to give me what is the method by which this information is being obtained before throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

    We had thought of someone taking our photos and doing back ground check, someone using hypnosis etc. There were bits of information about ancestry that I did not know and had to come home to check up from my relatives.

    • @Sathya,

      But, I will wait for some one to give me what is the method by which this information is being obtained before throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

      Have you considered the possibiliy that they maybe using cold reading techniques?

    • I would tend to agree with Mr Sathya since I too experienced same way .To my utter shock the details given by Nadi were too personal and embedded for them to do a cold reading.

      Since i am an engineer myself,I am very keen to understand if there is a science behind this or is it some type of fraud.

      If this is true my larger question will be if there exist a free will or everything is already written and coded?

      Comments most welcome.

      • It is sad that despite evidence to the contrary people do keep harping on their ‘personal experiences’ and claim that their back ground prevents them from being taken for a ride. In our system ‘education’ is mainly feeding of information and conditioning the students to answer what they have learned by rote. Of course I too have been a part of the same system but by practice through years managed to learn to think out of the box. There are so many variables for the events in our lives that it is quite difficult for an outsider to say how predictions were done for you. Some times these investigations reveal startling unexpected things which may be shocking. So, it would be better not to go further into how ‘accurate’ predictions were made for you.
        As for things being preordained you could go back into my older write up about the same. If the man who reads the leaves had read his own would he have not known that on that particular day some one would come and feed him all misinformation? Why did he have to ask innumerable questions before identifying the leaves pertaining to the individual before him? Why the did the divine hand(to assume such a one exists)have not guided him to the proper document relevant to the client sitting before him? If everything has been preprogrammed, then what needed to be done was to keep a document ready to be handed over when the person walks in because all that has been decided before by the powers that be! And, if this were the case how come it failed with everyone with whom I had gone? The best way for you to test this very objectively would be for you to go there next time with an envelope with a currency note. Since it would be preordained the reader would be knowing that you expect him to read the serial number of that he would do that on the spot and also give you the number before the envelope is opened and this could be easily verified. Besides once he passes your test he can become eligible for a bigger one with me in which I will give him a stake money of Rs.10 lakhs if he can do that with me under controlled conditions the only precondition is that he or you on his behalf must place a small sum of 2% of the amount as deposit which will be refunded along with the prize money if he can do that. Instead of arguing endlessly about such things one could prove conclusively once for all that nadi jotidam is an accurate science. Now do not escape from this by saying that they don’t do it for money etc. because I don’t see any of them doing it free for any one. Alternatively, the nadi expert could also predict the number of a lottery ticket and earn earn huge amounts by that instead of slogging it out in dingy shops touting for customers. I do not think it should be difficult for an expert who had told you many things about your personal life not known to any one else to do this petty thing by the high standards that you have ascribed to him.But, of course they have their escape routes and tell you that it has been predicted that they would fail and hence they would not do it! So, here is a position where they always win!

  • For the skeptic no proof is sufficient and for the believer no proof is necessary. However, one thing that strikes me about the entire approach is that when the entire enterprise is based on debunking and therefore is only seeking out instances that are suited to them. Should it be a really scientific experiment you need to gather both types of data….. the accurate and the inaccurate ones. I found that as far as my past was concerned there was 99% accuracy and even about aspects I had no knowledge of and had to rely on older relatives to later verify. As far as my future predictions are concerned they have an accuracy of about 80% of which I found two incidents to be quite significant. My wife would have a very specific surgery (14 years after reading) or that my very close relation would marry a divorcee with a 6 year old son. I have been through the cold reading concept etc., Let me share an incident of a neibhour a swedish gentleman married to a malaysian lady. He happened on nadi and went in. They found his ‘olai’ and gave him a reading., much of it mundane. There were some which were quite interesting as he confessed to me. First he happened to be a very skeptic swede 72 years of age and thrice married with many grandchildren etc. They happened to give him name and nationality of each of his wive’s, including that of his current wife. The name they gave was sanahita (or something like that he said) which was wrong as the lady was named Nancy. So he dropped it at that and a couple of months later, his wife happened to speak to her mother (they were orginally from Srilanka) and when the mother heard that this was the name give, the old lady screamed. That was the name they had given their daughter on birth and till two years, when they had converted to christianity, which the child never even knew herself. Well in the words of this old gentleman with all of three hair on his head “my hair stood on my head, when I heard this piece”. Well he happened to sell out his business to his own brother in law and moved back to Sweden as was told years ago….. I have no agenda to prove this is a hoax nor do I have any vested interest in proving them right. I am intrigued, just as when I see magic. I follow all the skeptics to see if when the secret is revealed. Maybe there is some system they have in the background. Whatever it is has to be pretty sophisticated, or by now the whole secret of the system would have been out in the open. My two bits 🙂

  • There are many factors which effect the healing/curing process is and not only, inner trust, Positivity and the Will power is only one of those many factors and we cannot say or predict the end result all the time. And Miracles don’t happen all the time for all the People, then it will not be a miracle. The Definition differs from person to person.

    Anyway, Nobody can escape the LAW OF KARMA/DESTINY Which in Sanskrith, it is called ‘Vidhi’ means a predestined fate, which even the creator (Brahma) cannot change, once it has been written.

    There are three types of Karmas 1) Dhrudha Karmas (Fixed/Destined which cannot be changed – Prarabdha Karmas)
    2) Dhrudha-Adhrudha Karmas (Semi-Fixed, Which can be changed by Some Effort)
    3) Adhrudha Karmas (Not fixed, Easily Changeable)……

    The Correlation of KARMAS is again Prarabdha = Which is acquired from the Past and Fixed, one has to go through it at any cost.
    Sanchitha = Which is acquired from the past and the bundled ’Share’ in this Birth to be experienced…..And upto this instant (moment) acquired karma also can be included. Aagaami = That which is going to be added, the coming Karma being bundled upto the already ongoing Karmas (Sanchitha+Prarabda), due to our Actions in this Birth or in this Instant).

    So even Astrology cannot change the Dhrudha Karmas, But it can put a person to not to acquire further negative karmas as well as to get reduced/mitigated for most of the Sanchitha Karmas by acting Positively and by PACIFYING the Planets. Thus, so that not to effect so much of Sanchitha and Aagaami.

    Some Karmas are called Dhrudha (Fixed) Karmas, like birth, death etc. Which no body can change, at the most even Miracles may Postpone it……..But everybody has to go through the Experience of Dhrudha Karmas which are known also as Prarabdha Karmas….

    Also Human Beings Actions are Categorised as 1) ESSENTIAL (SOUL REALIZATION – SAADHANA RELATED KARMAS) 2) SEMI-ESSENTIAL (Day to Day Living Karmas, like Job, Business, Marriage etc. Which are essential to maintain one’s family survival, Vedic Living) 3) NON-ESSENTIAL – this is where every/mostly Humans are wasting their 90% of time and energy, acquiring fresh Negative Karmas….. this should be avoided)

    Again the Human Nature is Divided in to 1) SATHVIK 2) RAJASIK 3) THAMASIK And Shiva is GunAthita, He is Above All.

    So it is all complex thing (the Karma theories…..) to easily understand and many factors do effect a Human’s life at any given Instant and it is highly Dynamic and Ever changing. Ofcourse that’s Life! Anyway We have to do our ESSENTIAL duty at some instant of Eternity. That is the Purpose of Life (Births) and Deaths. Soul is Never Born, Never Dies. It is always part of ‘SuperSoul’ the nameless infinite continuum.

    All the Babas and Saints or religious people can only Bless and Send some Positive Vibrations and pray (some times it may work (or may not), when the weightage of other factors is also good. So there is always a good effect on healing, nothing wrong in seeking great souls’ blessings.), And visiting Healers, REIKI/Pranic Masters, Aura Clearing, Yoga, Visiting Temples and Ashramas, Doing Charities etc. all have a Positive effect, no doubt about it. The turning Points are to be turned in to the ESSENTIAL. That was my point infact. I have seen Many Friends who have attended Meditation/Yoga Camps more than two-weeks and when they came back, their faces were Glowing/Shining with Brightness and Glow. Ofcourse after few weeks/months it will deplete due to our actions (day to day). So the Positive ATTITUDE should be total and Holistic.

    But ultimately the ‘VIDHI’ (fate) decides and Dhrudha (Prarabdha Karmas) cannot/couldnot be escaped even by Ramana Maharishi or Osho or I or You or anybody living on this earth. That is VIDHI . Otherwise this world would have been at stand still.
    Best Wishes to All.

    May all of us Abide in the ESSENTIAL.

    Namasthay

    Can You Tell me who is a real Vedic Brahmana? IS there anybody? Really?….
    I don’t think Bigoted ‘officiating priests’ are real Vedic Brahmanas.
    Also what kind of Karma will that Brahmana Who cursed will undergo? What kind of Remedy/Shanthi that Cursing real Vedic Brahmana DO?

  • Are you against Nadi Astrology or totally against Astrology? These are all to be Self Realized as there is plenty of knowledge to experience about Astrology which is spread world-wide…. useless to argue with pre-decided and skeptics

  • Astrology is an art and a science of extrapolating and interpolating data points (DOB,Time, Place, Thumb impression). This was ancient tool used for decision making which has probability limit of max 0.8….likewise we have modern decision making tools such as AIRM, ELECTRE etc.

    For best results from astrology, one should visit trained, experienced astrologers to have max predictions. Or else, with street side readings you are doomed to get predictions with probability limit upto 0.1 with mainly incorrect results….which by modern way you call them fraud.

    You can never call any science fraud….but practitioner can be a fraud !!

    • Of course one can call a science fraud. What gave you the idea that you can’t?!

      For instance, imagine watching a simple card trick where the suit of the card you pick out changes from hearts to clubs while you are holding the card in your hand.

      If the card magician tried to convince you that he actually changed the suit on your specific card from hearts to clubs using telekinesis of the plastic molecules, that is a fraud science and a fraud practitioner.

      If while claiming this, he actually did the trick using a thin coating of Polyesterene that he perfected for playing cards, that is real science, although a different one. He is still a fraud practitioner and the original science being claimed (telekinesis) still remains fraud.

      If he claims this cheekily as part of this act and you know he is being sarcastic or comedic because he doesn’t want to give away the trick, that is no science and he is in fact an honest practitioner of a different skill all together (card magic)

      And if one day we discover that telekinesis is possible, this should still lend no credibility to him what so ever. Most of us have the intuition to understand that the card trick was just that, a card trick.

      A very simple test could be designed to debunk the telekinesis claim of this magician. Of course the magician would never submit to let himself be tested, because it would “disturb the energy and the flow that allows ihim to perform telekinesis on the card”. Then, people like Narendra Nayak, in an attempt to dig deeper, would be forced to hire this magician and observe the trick. They would realize the trick is nothing more than a standard double lift, and if the cards are cut right before the magician is about to do the lift, the trick doesn’t work, thereby essentially proving that there is no telekinesis involved. And it is then, that believers like you, who have been so blown away by this trick (I am being generous in even assuming this) would come out of the woodwork claiming, “Telekinesis is real! you can never call any science fraud. this practitioner was just a fraud. He was performing the science to an inferior probability limit because he was simply a card magician and a liar, as opposed to those who can actually do Telekinesis”

      In conclusion, and excuse my hostility but trust me its frustrating being on the rational team for these arguments, please don’t try and get away with ridiculous statements like “You can never call any science fraud, but practitioner can be fraud” simply because you rambled on about decision making acronyms and probability limits for a couple of minutes.

    • Astrology is not a science. It is a system… a system that does not work. It has a data collection system and a set of rules to generate predictions.

      It is a pseudo-scientific system. Even as just a system, it does not have internal validity, let alone external validity. Astrology had been subjected to scientific examinations. It FAILED MISERABLY, EVERY SINGLE TIME. Astrology performed WORSE than random predictions by non-astrologers.

      I don’t know where you got this 0.8 probability limit. It looks completely made-up.

      The only effects the planets have on you is the gravitational pull. People around you have a larger gravitational pull on you than any of the planets. Astrology lacks plausibility. It does not pass ANY scientific test. People believe in it entirely due to cognitive biases. Astrology succeeds as a business entirely because people are gullible.

      It is important to have double-blinded tests to evaluate it.
      A double-blind test of astrology. S Carlson – Nature, 1985
      https://publications.lbl.gov/islandora/object/ir%3A88130/datastream/PDF/download/citation.pdf

      It is easy for an astrologer to convince a gullible customer and the world is full of them. They never succeed when tested in a proper double-blinded setting. They never succeed in matching natal charts to subjects. Often they don’t even agree amongst themselves when making natal chart matches.

      A scientific inquiry into the validity of astrology. JH McGrew, RM McFall – Journal of Scientific Exploration, 1990
      https://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/13436625/1487255418/name/jse_04_1_mcgrew.pdf

  • I went to a nadi reader 10 year back, got a recorded cassette and forgot it.I was 32 then and 42 now.I was leading a happy married life then. A month back, I found that cassatte when I was cleaning my room.I arranged for a cassette player & listened to it. I was shocked at the accuracy of the reading. It said that I would be separated from my wife in a specific year,break a limb in a certain year, remarry & my second wife name will be so, will have only a single child, will start my own business in a particular year, will face business related court cases at a particular age, suffer losses in a particular year.EVERY THING HAS BEEN SPOT ON.I AM PLANNING TO SEARCH FOR THE READER and visit again.

  • To all the folks here,

    Let me give you my thoughts here. Judging or comprehending these statements are up to your individual minds.

    We human beings (Homo sapiens) have an amazing tool called BRAIN to perform almost everything that it perceives to be true to itself. It is highly sophisticated to be understood completely. However, let me tell you certain things which I understood and think to be true.

    Our brains have this trait that, it accepts certain things as true (belief) only when that particular thing assures his/her other preexisting ideas/beliefs/thought (reassurance of idea OR logical connection to pre-existing nework of ideas). These preexisting ideas may be real life experiences or imagined ones (based on expectation of the mind) or taught by someone (whose words are taken to be true without questions owing to the importance given to him/her by the believer.

    Once believed, if similar ideas are encountered, all of them combine or coexist in the mind. However, if the mind encounters a contrasting idea or opinion, then such dissimilar ideas resist one another and become forces in conflict.Then one idea is forced to become favored over another. The favored idea stays in consciousness. The unfavored idea is pushed out of consciousness. But it will remain in the unconsciousness.

    Once these ideas in consciousness sees any glimpse of a thing that will provide more assurance to the believer, his/her mind grasps and clings on to it more easily and in fact conjures up more re-confirming ideas along with some imagination owing to fill some gaps (if any), while trying to showcase or explain to others.

    So, the point here is, believers will continue to believe and rationalists will continue to disbelieve. Until unless something drastically happens such that a very strong idea or thought owing to any such experience occurs that contrasts with the existing idea but still overpowering those existing ideas and convinces mind of the unlikeliness or illogical nature or unfavorable nature of the existing ideas. Then such ideas will be thrown to unconscious and replaced with the new succeeding ideas. Such is the nature of human brain.

    Now, let me tell my view point to this topic being discussed in this blog. I believe on the fact that, anything that cannot be proven 100% at every instant of experimentation, is fake. Even if its’ scientists laws, and one equation in the law has been disproved, then that complete law is bound to be fake and must be thrashed from brains and books. Also, everything is bound by time and material, which is the nature of everything. So the time of study also plays a vital role in any experiment. However, if such a thing is proven wrong, then it means, that particular law does not hold true anymore and must be detested to be irrelevant to our times. Same applies to unknown authors’ concepts of Astrology or to that matter, also the concept called God!

    If something cannot be proven logically, then why believe in it and lead an irresponsible life? Instead take all the responsibility and live the right way now, rather than performing mere poojas or offerings or self-inflicting some pain in form of starvation, beating oneself, walking on bare foot and many such false beliefs to convince the mind and continue the wrongdoings with the cushion of going to God again and offering your richness or foolish obedience to the God (supreme Master) as bribe to your own crimes or fears and cleansing your mind of any little guilt that (had you not gone to God) might have changed your ways to righteous path of life with your own efforts, that might be much more life enriching experience, than believing some no-existent thing will take care and finding short-cuts in life to suppress the innate nature of our brain from asking any questions against any of our preconceived ideas and thereby leading a very irresponsible and similar to 5-sensory beings’ life.

    I think, the problem is we fail to accept nature as nature itself. Rather, trying to find a logical answer to our questions of creation or anything that our human race is yet to discover, we just put a full stop to all the questions in the name of God and arrest the curiosity in us. This very nature in us that always tries to find shortcuts, tries to conjures up such fake things such as Astrology, etc and puts forth them as answers to make us believe in something and inevitable, once mind believes, our thoughts and actions combine to prove them right. Although it lures people as solution to their problems, what those people (preachers) actually do is, misuse people’s tendency to believe in such things and make money for their livelihood. And for people who believe, they come back from such places thinking and firmly believing that their problem will be resolved. And by the very nature of human brain, if we firmly believe something, then our thoughts and action come together to fulfill it unconsciously. And we inevitably find solutions to our problems and finally attribute it to the so called God or god men, who actually did nothing but just exploited you. And in fact, its you yourself who solved your problems but so modestly give it up to Him.

    May you please find peace and happiness from within and stop this never ending search outside.

    For the believers of Astrology,
    Trust me, life will be exciting only when you don’t know your future. Else it will become too boring. And your past is something which you already know. So whats the fun in hearing it from some unknown stranger.

    Live everyday in the present with a positive, life enriching purpose rather than dying early knowing your future or re-experiencing your past pains by hearing your so-called past painful stories yet again.

    • Dear Raj rajan Sir,
      You are correct when you say,”Even if its’ scientists laws, and one equation in the law has been disproved, then that complete law is bound to be fake and must be thrashed from brains and books.”

      Naadi Jyotishya is a tool to decide certain future stocks. You may or may Not listen.
      I, along with some friends are exploring matter written on Naadi palmleaf. Is there any thing really written or is it scrabbling without any meaning?
      The study reveals such writings have specific patterns and substance.
      Case study of Martin Kola was part of that study. He provided note book given to him for his leaf reading. Some indology experts have been studying script and language used in narration.
      Whether it is written by many Naadi Maharishis or by scoundrels like Naadi readers needs investigation.
      Skeptics are more interested to debunk astrology aspects. We have no problems about that.
      We expect them to come forward to study the literary aspects. Why they avoid and throw challenges at us?
      If they conduct examination of Naadi Literature many will Welcome… I hope.
      I am not supportive of any wrong doings by Naadi Center readers.
      At least this time they don’t say, “We have no time or If you happen to know Tamil will you please study the same?

  • Sir,
    I have been going thru the arguments and counter arguments on Nadi. About 10 years back, I went to a Nadi practitioner by the name of Mr. Arun in Anna Nagar-Chennai and my intention was to prove that it is all wrong. I went with the intention of “testing” it out. My “Olai” was found ofcourse with a bit of cold reading like matching my fathers name etc. but the remaining data that was given about where i was born, what i will do, wife’s name, sons name etc. were correct. He also said that I have come to “test” him without believing in him and those words were also written in tamil.

    As everybody feels here, it is possible to get some details like the fathers name etc by some cold reading but not all the details are given(I also did not give) and what amazes me is the details about the children, spouse name etc are given during the nadi reading.

    Second interesting point is, the horoscope that is given in the book at the end and it matches with the one that was made when I was born. How did they get it as I never gave them any other details like the time etc. Infact the “Olai” also has the birth chart which is written and given to the attendee.

    I believe in our sages and their knowledge and wisdom. It will be better if we go deep into it and I am sure that there will be some real treasure hidden which is being misused by the so called practitioners.

    To sum up, I think the science itself cannot be questioned but you can question the scrupulous practitioners.

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  • Everyone,here deals with nadi.I ask some questions. Anand, I apologise your comment.If these gunas removed by meditating state,and tell about karmic life.If it is possible to tell yogic life.

  • Past life can be seen only by those who enter 9th jhana (meditation) … Others all have normal conciousness and are fraud in nadi josiyam

  • Had a Nadi experience today. My friends who had visited this guy praised him a lot and accepted Nadi as a science and appreciated the skills of our ancestors. I was very curious. So i got an appointment and went in. This guy is supposedly a master in the field and people say great things about him. I entered in and waited for sometime and then this guy (reader) came and took a thumb impression of mine. He went in with that and after almost half an hour he came out with a bundle. It had about 60 leaves. He started questioning me. But my leaf wasnt available in that bundle. So he took another bundle. Towards the middle of this bundle, my leaf was to be found. By then, he had gone through at least 100 leaves and had asked me atleast 120 questions which were totally unrelated to each other and instead focused on different aspects of my life. I kept answering.
    And he got the leaf and after an hour he called me in. He has written down the entire thing in a book.And now started explaining to me. OYEEE…..it lasted for 20-25 minutes and all those things he mentioned were the answers that i answered during the questioning for confirming the leaf. And there was nothing new apart from some random predictions about future and that I have to have some pujas for the same costing about rs.3000/-

    This is pure cold reading and nothing else. With years of training, their mannerisms and interaction and all become trustworthy and awestrucking…but it is cold reading still. Another astrology related doubt cleared.

  • I went to see on naadi jyosiyar in Vellore a few years ago. He took my thumb print and first letter of my name. He then with his leaflets, started asking questions, some leaflets matches even up to 90%, after couple bundle of leaflets passed, luckily in less than hour I found the match. Then he went in and find the extended leaflet for that matches leave. Based on whats in that, he drew my birth chart accurately. Many details were accurate, including the name of the women I was married to and all. There are things made sense to me, maybe not for my parents. Because only I knew what I’ve been through in my life. He said this leaflet wouldn’t be a match if I come a year later, because it matches only a narrow age gap (something like if I am between 28 to 30, and I was 29). What he said was mostly about the past in this life (also past life, I have killed snake in my past life and its haunting in this life). But nothing mentioned about the future, and maybe it wasn’t meant to be. It cleared many things I had in my mind. Then he said I have a blocker and i cannot go further in to finding the next leaf which has more detail and it wasnt meant to be heard now. Asked me to go home and visit a Lord Muruga temple, put vilakku and do some prayers and that will clear the blocker and i could read further another day. In total we spent about about 4 hours. I think he charged about Rs.300. He said he only see a very few clients not everyone. Clearly he wasn’t there for money.

    I had many problems that time because of my wife. Because she looks innocent and able to cry anytime infront of others, everyone believed her. I was telling the truth, but no one believed me including my family. Every one said to me “how can a girl behave like this, is she a mental to behave like this?, she is not, it was you whos confused”. It was very hard for me to pull my life together all by myself. This visit kind of gave my family members the belief that I was actually telling the truth. Because what this astrologer told is what I’ve been telling my parents about her. I think I meant to visit this place in this need(naadi) and what I needed at that time was kind of available for me. It may not be everyone, you wont get everything, but you hear what you needed to hear. That’s what I believe.

  • There is no solution. Very difficult to expose fraud in their “set”. You can only test them if they accept your conditions.

    Even though you expose normal midbrain scam or this nadi stuff , I find nadi stuff as more psychologist or tarrot readers. Absolute sense they fraud but do help people relax but if they know you are rich you are doomed. It is like going to car mechanic with new car. He will losen few nuts in the car and tell you myriad of problems and hoping next time he take all your money.

    But what about Nityananda and kanchi sankaracharya? INDIA is conman paradise. They let hindu conman free reign to scam people in the name of religion.

    It is incredible a whole country made for conman.

  • Dear Dr Nayak Sir,
    Thanks for prompt action taken by you. Due to your alert the Sarva dharma morcha was banned fearing a gathering of 2000 to 2500 persons. This I came to know from a friend who showed me local news paper Pudhari. However, the purpose of morcha was served with a meeting with local rationalists and who have challenged, Jyotishacharya (As he calls himself) Atul Chajed on 11th April. They are to meet soon before news reporters and general public to decide the results. This is for your info and record.
    This issue is not the main topic of this thread. Examination Nadi Jothidam under watchful eyes is the one for which Dr Dre is going to provide his report.
    Meanwhile incidentally, I opened the link given previously here above.
    http://naadiapp.weebly.com
    I was wondering whether you are aware of the fact that previously this exploration of Nadi was conducted by late B Premanand and Dr Kovoor.
    Some articles were published in which someone had clarification sought to know how come B Premanand had accepted that his name was found in the palm leaf?
    The link above takes to some apps. One of them is about Nadi predictions a hoax? Surely many of the writers and supporters of this thread will find interesting to explore the apps.
    I presume Dr Narendra Nayak Sir being an expert in the field, will like to open a new topic for the same.

  • Visited one Nadi astrologer on 28th May. Not sure whether the future predictions are going to be anywhere true or close at all, anyway on the past I could give him a score of 6 out of 10. Post that this guy suggested pooja for 48 days at 60 rs a day. Hmmm knew i was getting conned but anyway went ahead with it. Few days later had taken a relative of mine to another reading place. Incidentally this guy walks in here and is surprised to see me. Inquires what i was doing here etc, etc. incidentally i ask him whether the pooja has started. The look on his face was of surprise as I am sure it was not started and he knew that i knew he pulled a fast one. Well serves me right, amongst the fraudsters in this beautiful world of ours, you find these guys including poojaris, touts all with the agenda of exploiting fear into a business model. Serves me right anyway was prepared to lose the money. End of day its better to feed poor people and burn your past karamas if any rather pay these guys.

  • dear sir, I am Ravichandra, Advocate, Bangalore. Even I wont believe in god, but I believe in Naadi Shaastra. because I tested it.. I cannot say exactly what is the power behind that. definitely it is beyond a human logic.. Near vaitheeshwaran temple, no doubt, 95% naadi readers are fraud.. But Naadi Jyothishya is not a FRAUD or FAKE.. Its My experience..

  • I had been to Vaitheeswaran Koil I think 13 years back to the temple. Even though I belong to nearby place I did not believe in all these things. At that time Poosaimuthu’s group was famous in this nadi. I thought I will not spend much and try to find what is init. since I look and behave like a local I was only charged few hundreds and there was a person at poosamuthu residence (not poosaimuthu) read the nadi for me. He gave me the note book and recording but I did not preserve since I did not believe in it ( the future he predicted). The past matched and names matched. To my surprise the details of my family, myself and spouse were all correct. It is easy to predict about my family and myself and really its hard to predict about my spouse. Even many of my relatives do not know about it. Some of the future predictions he mentioned I have to wait for 4 to 5 years and it happened. Some of the predictions he told me I did not even had a hope at that time but it happened. My interactions with him was minimal and the questions he asked me were very few and all were just direct and no hide and seek. At one time I was about to leave as I got irritated when he started his questions initially and after seeing my irritation he told my name, father, mother name directly and said the leaves say like this whether correct or not. Later I was calmed down a little and told him not to ask me questions like probability. He agreed and continued and never asked me the questions and he only told my past and future predictions.
    After that I never had an opportunity to see the nadi again even though I went to the temple several times. I’m not sure what is in it. I’m not a lay man as well. I did my tertiary education in Science and do not easily believe anything without any proof of concept. This nadi I could say I cannot believe based on the proof of concept and sometimes I believe based on my experience.

  • @SK “I’m not a lay man as well. I did my tertiary education in Science and do not easily believe anything without any proof of concept. This nadi I could say I cannot believe based on the proof of concept and sometimes I believe based on my experience.”
    @ Ravichandra ” Even I wont believe in god, but I believe in Naadi Shaastra. because I tested it.. I cannot say exactly what is the power behind that. definitely it is beyond a human logic..”
    You are very right sir, Have you gone through
    http://naadiapp.weebly.com
    Are you aware of the fact that previously this exploration of Nadi was conducted by late B Premanand and Dr Kovoor.
    Some articles were published in which someone had clarification sought to know how come B Premanand had accepted that his name was found in the palm leaf?
    The link above takes to some apps. One of them is about “Nadi predictions a hoax?” Surely many of the writers and supporters of this thread will find interesting to explore the apps.

  • @SK
    “I did my tertiary education in Science and do not easily believe anything without any proof of concept. This nadi I could say I cannot believe based on the proof of concept and sometimes I believe based on my experience.”

    If you go to a magic show and cannot figure out how the magician pulled out a rabbit from the hat, will you say: “I believe based on my experience”?… that magic portals to rabbit-lands do exist in magician hats? Of course not. Your “experience” is not an authenticity validator. That’s the whole reason behind having a painstaking scientific process.

    You say you have tertiary education in science. How exactly did you apply it here? Have you read any research literature on these prediction pseudosciences? What was the quantitative probability space for those “predictions”? Did you employ a proper scientific process? Did you even get a copy of the leaf for interpretation by a different language expert? If no, at least for this case, you are not different than anyone without a science degree.

  • All r cheaters I’d visited durai swamy subburathinam in west tambram chennai, sri agasthiya mahasiva athi sukshma nadi astrological centre of V.S.A ARUL MUTHU KUMAARASAMY in gurgaon and head office at vaithiswarankoil koil which is managed by A.SIVASAMY,sri agasthiya sudhar nadi jyotish in kataria sarai delhi and head office in Coimbatore of A.N.SAKTHIVEL & L.A.MURUGAIAN & also I visited one in avinashi muttuswamy and three jeeva naadi readers one sri ganesha in Thanjavur which give prediction that whatever parihar we tell u here u will not do any and after two or 3 years u will come back here first comes true and second not. Second jeeva naadi reader was sri RAMAN GURUJI OF E TAMBRAM HIS PREDICTION ALSO WENT TOTALLY WRONG EVEN I DO POOJA AS said by him,third reader jeevan adi is TAVAYOGI THANGARASAN ADIGAL AT KALLAR in Coimbatore he even can’t tell present . So I request u to dont waste your money and time on these fraudsters.

  • @Ravi- Sage Agasthya wrote it correctly. Problem is palm readers are poor in interpreting it. Also your palm will be available only with one Nadi jyotish guy. Check it out

    In general, contrary to what skeptics say, astrology does have astronomy. When Sun, moon and lunar node (Rahu or ketu) comes in one rashi , one star solar eclipse occurs. If Rahu or ketu is not there it would be just a new moon.

    Astrology cannot be scientifically proven because, it is not quantifiable. Anything related to mind, sins, good merits, blessings etc are not measurable and quantifiable . But statistically if you see, whatever Varahamihira says in hora is 100% true.

    Besides this, of course good karma can change the astrological effects. So does blessings of Gods and Godesses and great saints/ elders etc

  • @Answering Ravi

    Sage Agasthya wrote it correctly.

    None of these leaves were written by Agasthya. These are cheaply and recently produced leaves with random old-Tamil looking scribblings that are then processed a bit to make them look old.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mrup498kbQ

    Palm-leaf manuscripts don’t usually last more than a few centuries, after which they need to be re-transcribed. People are simply taking advantage of your cultural beliefs. Today, all astrology is culturally-sanctioned fraud.

    In general, contrary to what skeptics say, astrology does have astronomy.

    Astrology does have astronomy… a pre-scientific, incorrect, geo-centric model of astronomy that was used across most of the ancient world, not just in India. That isn’t the issue here.

    Astrology cannot be scientifically proven because, it is not quantifiable.

    Astrology can absolutely be scientifically be DISPROVEN because we can indeed quantify its predictions (we don’t need to care about its purported mechanisms). And it has been dis-proven. There are studies on the topic. Astrology (every kind of it) fails when properly tested. I have linked a few in the discussion above.

    Anything related to mind, sins, good merits, blessings etc are not measurable and quantifiable .

    That is because these are wishy-washy, hand-waving ideas. To get clarity, one needs to define – both what is and what isn’t, in ways that we can all objectively agree. Blessings, sins etc are vague religious and cultural ideas. Once properly defined, direct/indirect measurement is generally possible. Concepts should be critically vetted, not be faith-based.

    But statistically if you see, whatever Varahamihira says in hora is 100% true.

    Statistics aren’t rhetorical tools. If you say 100%, you should bring your data, not pull numbers out of thin air. On what evidence basis can you claim that the Hora Sara is 100% true? Because people who have never tested it nod their head uncritically about it? What value do such empty claims have?

    The entire ancient world, not just India, produced a whole bunch of astrological texts. Not a SINGLE ONE has been critically demonstrated to produce reliable predictions. The whole premise that we can produce such predictions is entirely based on dark ages thinking – with a very poor understanding of cause and effect, cognitive biases, astronomy and probability. People used to joke and critique about the silliness of Astrology even in the ancient world, including in India.

    Besides this, of course good karma can change the astrological effects. So does blessings of Gods and Godesses and great saints/ elders etc

    You have no basis to make any of these claims. You are just saying things that feel good to you and appeal to your cultural sensibilities. That isn’t the proper way to think. Let us live in the 21st century, not in the 15th.

    Problem is palm readers are poor in interpreting it.

    Astrology is not a science because the model is highly irrational and it has been empirically shown to not work. But we could call it a system (a sastra), albeit a non-working system, but a system nonetheless. However, if different readers can’t even agree on what it is, it isn’t much of a system even, isn’t it?

  • @Ravi – I have just an aquiantance with nadi jyotish so I cant comment on it muc. Just shared my observation.

    On Indian astrology, you said below:-
    Astrology does have astronomy… a pre-scientific, incorrect, geo-centric model of astronomy that was used across most of the ancient world, not just in India. That isn’t the issue here.

    Yes I agree it is geo centric. Astrology is all about relative movement of sun, moon, lunar nodes (Rahu and Ketu) and five planets around earth. But how come you say it is pre-scientific and incorrect without any knowledge. As I told, moon , sun and lunar nodes come together, astrologers calculate the solar eclipse correctly. The panchangam clearly says time of eclipse. it is not based on modern scientific calculations. And I don’t believe in western astrology or its calculations. Do you know except sun and moon all other 5 planets have retrograde (ie they move backwards sometimes) . This proves that the movement is relative to earth.. Do not spread misinformation without knowing.

    Regarding how Saturn or mars affect us, I cant prove scientifically. It is not gravity or some invisible rays. But it does affect whether you believe or not.

    Now question of me providing proof. I know it personally. But it is personal to those people. SO how do you except me to share. You will believe only if you have problem and you approach a true astrologer and his predictions come true.

  • But how come you say it is pre-scientific and incorrect without any knowledge.

    Because there isn’t much of a science until you can reliably collect data. Astrology was just hard without telescopes, just as understanding infectious diseases was very hard until there were microscopes.

    As I told, moon , sun and lunar nodes come together, astrologers calculate the solar eclipse correctly. The panchangam clearly says time of eclipse.

    The whole ancient world was doing that. Please lookup what an almanac is.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almanac

    Panchangam is just the Indian almanac.

    And I don’t believe in western astrology or its calculations.

    Of course you don’t. You are a product of our Indian culture and beliefs.

    Do you know except sun and moon all other 5 planets have retrograde (ie they move backwards sometimes) .

    Planets don’t move backwards. What you are referring to is this…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparent_retrograde_motion

    We love science precisely because it demonstrates to us (with proof) that reality is different from simple perceptions.

    This proves that the movement is relative to earth.. Do not spread misinformation without knowing.

    Sigh.

    Regarding how Saturn or mars affect us, I cant prove scientifically. It is not gravity or some invisible rays. But it does affect whether you believe or not.

    How do you know it effects anything if you don’t have data? You just have beliefs.

    Now question of me providing proof. I know it personally.

    That’s not called scientific proof. People believe in pseudoscience for the exact reasons you have. We do science because “personal proof” is highly problematic.

    But it is personal to those people.

    Science is not personal to people. It is about general, verifiable claims about reality. Beliefs are personal to people.

    SO how do you except me to share. You will believe only if you have problem and you approach a true astrologer and his predictions come true.

    And this is exactly why people believe in Astrology. They think astrologers gave them remarkable predictions. But science clearly shows they actually don’t.

    Please read up on the psychology of what happens when people visit astrologers. Look up the cognitive biases at play here.

  • ok Ravi. Even I said planet moving backward is relative to earth not in actual terms. Astrology is motion of planets across zodiacs and it is relative to earth.

    You observe the moon on your star birthday (not DOB) every year. The moon will be of same size (full moon, new moon, partial moon etc).

    On 14th Jan 1761 makara sankranthi Marathas decided to break Abdali’s en-circle at panipat. The point to be noted is 14th Jan is makara sankranthi/pongal for so many years. If our astrological calendar has only 365 days, makara sankranthi would be behind atleast by 50 days by now. The indian astrological calender is as precise as gregorian calender or even more accurate. Vishu/ Astrological new year is celebrated on april 14th since ages. The significance of this day is this is the day sun enters aries (mesha rashi). The calender is based on sun’s movement through 12 zodiac signs and it is so precise. The months are based on time adjusted to days.

    refer panchangam and identify whether moon is in same rashi as jupiter, venus or mars and you can precisely see with naked eyes that planet near moon . Btw stars (light years away) blink but planets do not. You can verify without any telescope.

    The great seers had calculations on plantetary movements which are called ganitam-golam (math). panchamgams are calculated with this. it would be available for another 100 years or so. I dont think there are any astrologers left who knows ganitam-golam(math) part because, panchangam needs recalculations from time to time.

    My bit of advice to you is just do not reject the hard works of great seers . If you had knowledge of below works and then rejecting astrology I am ok.

    Jatakadesham- excellent elementary book on astrology
    Sage Parashara Hora
    Great Varahamihira’s Brihat jatakam
    Prashnamarga (Prashna is available only in kerala now)
    Bhrigu saravalli
    chamatkara chintamani
    Kalidasa’s uttarakalamritham
    Mantreswara’s Phaladeepika
    9 . Thalakulathu Bhattathiri’s bhashyam (commentary) on Varahamihira’s brihat jataka known as dashadhyayi (also in sanskrit)

    Lastly psycology is also not scientific. So is astrology. But that doesn’t mean it is irrelevant. Twins born with same horoscope will have very similar life experiences. I have witnessed . But as Varahamihira himself says period/age/century , caste, culture, country, religion factors must be considered in analysing horoscope.

  • Look, no one is denying that Geo-centric astronomy was complicated. It had to be… because it was a wrong model. So it had to explain a lot of things that made little sense, through a lot of conceptual gymnastics like epicycles.

    No one is questioning the intelligence (only the correctness) of the pre-modern, pre-scientific astronomers. They were trying their best to make sense of the world, within the limited tools they had at their disposal.

    Nor is anyone saying that Geo-centric astronomy was useless. It had a fundamentally wrong model at the core. The observations were less precise by modern standards. But it did produce useful predictions, to the problems of the day: crops, navigation etc. Please take a look at Ptolemaic Astronomy. Ancient Astronomy was approximately the same across the world.

    By a seer, if you mean a person who is endowed by supernatural insight into the world, there was never a seer in human history. We were just making myths. Were there people of extra-ordinary intellect? Sure. The ancient so-called-seers are the equivalents of gifted professors of our era (minus the modern research infrastructure), y’know, the kind of people who win Nobels in science. We don’t draw halos around them, nor should we do that for the ancient scholars… because once we do, it kills further critical debate.

    But all this does not change the fact that ASTROLOGY (not Astronomy) has not produced a single verifiable predictive principle EVER.

    Modern Psychology is scientific… it is nowhere close to the science standards of say, Physics, but it is a science nonetheless. Modern psychologists are quite empirical. They don’t simply make theories… they attempt to critically validate them. The studies can be poor… many don’t replicate well and cannot be taken as definitive. But the Psychology community is critiquing itself… as a scientific community should… and is trying to make things better. None of this happens in pseudosciences like Astrology. No one even dares to say any ancient text is wrong and needs to get corrected.

    I venerate ancient books as much as anyone. I am proud to have held a 1000 year old classic text in my hands. But once you treat the contents of texts as special, sacred, and inerrant… advancement is dead. You should be asking… do I even know what the empirical basis is for any astrological text and claim? How should I construct an experiment to verify the claims. Well, the results are in: there is no recorded empirical basis and the predictions don’t work when tested properly.

    Twins born with same horoscope will have very similar life experiences.

    You don’t think that genetics and common upbringing have anything to do with this? Why don’t you instead ask yourself if all the children born in the same hospital/village/town, on the same day, have similar life experiences. It is a slightly better question.

    http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Downloads/article_id_096_05_0641_0643_0.pdf

    In distinguishing from 2 groups of children who were either distinctly bright or mentally retarded, desi astrologers (since you think they are better, results would be same across the world) performed WORSE than a coin flip… and did not even know enough math to understand that they were doing awful when shown the results.

  • Hey Ravi- Two children born within 2 hours gap have most probably same lagna (ascendant) and same horoscope unless there is no transit for planets (es moon which stays only 2.25 days in a rashi). They should have similar life although other factors (like community, family) may come to play. I haven’t done the study but the great astrologers/astronomers I mentioned earlier did. In fact they did empirical analysis as you told (regarding psycology). Some authors quote from previous authors, some even deny. EG:- Kalidasa was considered the best Sanskrit composer ever but his work uttara kalamritam is no where near Varahamihira’s works.

    So you seems to be an atheist/agnostic who does not believe in anything supernatural? I feel that the common mistake many rationalists do is they themselves have little understanding of science, yet they criticize all ancient Indian knowledge as pseudo sciences and nonsense.

    Secondly they hold many western, near east, middle east psychological hypothesis with religious fervor. Never say communist manifesto or das capital can be having error which irritates me. In my case I have experienced the truth and validity of my religion, temples, rituals and even astrology and it is very hard for me not to believe.

  • Two children born within 2 hours gap have most probably same lagna (ascendant) and same horoscope unless there is no transit for planets (es moon which stays only 2.25 days in a rashi). They should have similar life although other factors (like community, family) may come to play.

    Good. You made a claim. Now collect data and publish. Opinions are cheap. Evidence is golden.

    You will instead suddenly find that your pre-conceived cultural beliefs don’t stand up… just like those of the Astrologers in the paper I linked.

    I haven’t done the study but the great astrologers/astronomers I mentioned earlier did. In fact they did empirical analysis as you told (regarding psycology).

    Then cite and summarize their study protocols and results. I won’t just take your word for it.

    So you seems to be an atheist/agnostic who does not believe in anything supernatural?

    Duh! Did you check which web site you are on? 🙂

    I feel that the common mistake many rationalists do is they themselves have little understanding of science, yet they criticize all ancient Indian knowledge as pseudo sciences and nonsense.

    You are wrong on both counts. Rationalists, as a group, understand science quite well. Science is naturalistic inquiry. If you are prone to supernaturalism, you really don’t get science, even if you have a science based job.

    Rationalists don’t critique India. They criticize irrationality… regardless of the country of origin. Rationalists oppose superstition and promote science.

    Secondly they hold many western, near east, middle east psychological hypothesis with religious fervor.

    Nope. You are mistaken again. You just don’t understand what rationalism is. We don’t care about mere hypotheses. We care about evidence. And we don’t care where science is done… India, Africa or America. Properly done science holds true regardless of the origin and is REPLICABLE. Irrational people cling to mystical metaphysics. Rationalists hold VERIFIABLE Truth valuable, not the manufacturing date on it.

    Never say communist manifesto or das capital can be having error which irritates me.

    Who said that? You are conflating communism with rationalism. Communism has been a political religion. It suppressed free debate, jumped to baseless decisions and conclusions and promoted pseudoscience (Eg: Lysenkoism) in order to forward its ideology.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

    No claim should be sacred to a rationalist. You can absolutely question every form of economics and political model. Just argue with data rather than ideology. Argue with scientific evidence, rather than personal experience.

    Communism is materialistic i.e. it claims that the material is all there is. I concur with that. But that alone isn’t communism and it didn’t invent it either. Carvaka school of ancient India is materialistic and predates Communism by thousands of years.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charvaka

    “Charvaka holds direct perception, empiricism, and conditional inference as proper sources of knowledge, embraces philosophical skepticism and rejects Vedas, Vedic ritualism and supernaturalism.”

    “One of the widely studied principles of Charvaka philosophy was its rejection of inference as a means to establish valid, universal knowledge, and metaphysical truths. In other words, the Charvaka epistemology states that whenever one infers a truth from a set of observations or truths, one must acknowledge doubt; inferred knowledge is conditional.”

    Does this sound western to you? This is also your heritage and culture. No, you chose non-materialism, not for Indian reasons (unlike with your choice of Indian Astrology over Western Astrology). You chose non-materialism because you are not rational. Don’t blame India or its heritage for it.

    In my case I have experienced the truth and validity of my religion, temples, rituals and even astrology and it is very hard for me not to believe.

    The problems of “experience” have been so well-documented at this point that they have no value in any modern intellectual discourse, if you come empty handed with regards to evidence. If you are sure about validity, just collect the data. Why is this hard? A thousand arguments can be silenced by one experiment and a few follow-up replications. That is far more efficient.

  • @Ravi- If you are truly rationalist without any bias, then I have to respect you as you are steadfast in your “beliefs”

    I stand by my statement, lagna is important in horoscope. The test you cited is not convincing to me . kids born within same lagna (roughly 2 hours) on a day where there is no planetary transit must have more or less same horoscope and dasha and apahara periods. Their lives must be similar. But getting such data is very difficult and my job is not to prove or disprove anything. That’s the reason I cited twins example. But you stated that it is because of their same genetic make and same up bringing.

    Let me tell you one thing, I believe in hard work ,divine blessing, good merits and astrology but not in intelligence. All humans are born with brain. it is effort and dedication matters. Talent is 1% inspiration and 99% hard work.

    You made an interesting point regards to charvaka. Actually the main proponent of this ideology is I read was Ajita Keshakambalan. Ajita is invincible and Kesha means hair in head. Kambala means blanket. What I observe was he was a lust ful man who did not like the established morals,norms and values. Perhaps he had bad experience at his home which made him a rebel. Otherwise I cannot digest the fact that some one who lived in 6th century BCE in India cannot believe in anything supernatural or law of karma.

    Regarding astrology may be if you let me know your DOB and time I can create an online horoscope and try to predict with my very little knowledge to convince you?

  • you are steadfast in your “beliefs”

    I am a skeptic. I try not to operate with beliefs. Not having beliefs is not a type of belief. Off is not a TV channel. Not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

    Let me tell you one thing, I believe in hard work ,divine blessing, good merits and astrology but not in intelligence. All humans are born with brain. it is effort and dedication matters.

    So you don’t accept biological and environmental predisposition, but believe in celestial predisposition?! No one is disputing the value of effort and dedication.

    Regarding astrology may be if you let me know your DOB and time I can create an online horoscope and try to predict with my very little knowledge to convince you?

    But that would be a flawed demonstration. Psychologists have been doing this for decades to demonstrate the flaw. In their classes, they give their students a horoscope… in developed countries, it is usually masked as a scientific personality test or whatever. Students are asked to rate if it was a hit or a miss. Most, about 3/4th typically, say that it is a hit. Then it is revealed to the students that they all got the same horoscope.

    This is exactly how people fall for horoscopes. The horoscopes, more often than not, sound enough accurate.

    A more proper way of testing would be something like this. Give all the horoscopes to all the subjects and ask them if they can pick the right one from the large enough collection. Or let the subjects rate themselves on a questionnaire and have the astrologers match their responses to natal charts. Or just use the study design the two studies I linked used.

    You would understand why this important if you take research design courses.

  • @Ravi,
    I am a conservative , religious, orthodox and fundamentalist Hindu . So I believe and perhaps has too much faith in my religion. I am a hindu supremacist too

    You asked me whether I believe biological and environmental predisposition- answer is No. Because genetics, psycology, other religions , other ideologies are all pseudo sciences . I am not convinced. Then why I am a Hindu ?- because in this case I am logically convinced . I am convinced with newton’s three laws of mechanics. The gravitational constant G is constant universally even near a black hole or while travelling close to speed of light. Such a conviction I do not have with regards to ancient greek philosophy, other religions , communism, modern human psychologies or philosophies . But for Hinduism I am convinced and have logically (not scientifically) convinced with every bit of it.

  • @ravi- One more thing, in developed countries which horoscope are they following? As I said earlier I don’t consider western horoscope to be accurate.

    You tell the DOB and time of a person you know very well not necessarily yours and I will try to predict with my knowledge

  • I am a hindu supremacist too

    Take a couple of comparative religion courses. That should fix x,y,z-supremacist positions.

    Because genetics, psycology, other religions , other ideologies are all pseudo sciences

    Genetics is a pseudoscience for you? Tomorrow, one of the talks I am attending is on the latest gene EDITING technology. This is where the world is at now. Please keep up.

    Then why I am a Hindu ?- because in this case I am logically convinced .

    No, you are a Hindu because you are born into a Hindu community. With the exception of a very small percentage, nearly everyone on the planet who practices a religion follows whatever religion they are born into. Everyone is totally convinced about whatever religion they practice. Else they would not be in it. Some naturally show more enthusiasm than others.

    Take a few courses in formal logic before understanding what “logically convinced” means.

    Such a conviction I do not have with regards to ancient greek philosophy

    No one considers Greek (or any other) philosophy a science. There is no need to have any conviction about it. Philosophy is never taught as Truth (capital T), but rather as an attempt at it. Classical philosophy is taught as part of human intellectual history. Quite a few Greek philosophies have Indian equivalents. It is about time we started teaching our own ones widely and properly.

    You tell the DOB and time of a person you know very well not necessarily yours and I will try to predict with my knowledge

    If you took some statistics courses, you would not be asking for this. You would understand why this would be a futile exercise.

  • @Ravi- You said “Take a couple of comparative religion courses. That should fix x,y,z-supremacist positions.” I think I have a fair idea of basic concepts of God, soul and after life in all religions be it Abrahamic ,Indic or other. And I am fully convinced of my religions concept as perfect and truth. May be I am a zakir naik of hindus. :). But I agree that since I am hindu myself the way I approach Hinduism may be different from the way I approach other religions/ philosophies and ideologies.

    Let me correct myself, genetics is not “pseudo science” it has a great deal of science in it. But there are many hypothesis based on observations which are not tested in all conditions. Just as modern medicine is also partially scientific.

    Now psychology is even less scientific. Many of its theories are either humbug or based on observable patterns on a certain group of peoples which may not be correct all the time for all peoples.

    Other ideologies and religions (other than Hinduism) are totally non scientific.

    Back to astrology, the practical purpose of it is to caution some one and give hope to people. One is facing hard times. He will be filled with hope if he come to know that there is a good time ahead. So he will work hard with hope. If a person is having good times, he have to keep self restraint otherwise he cannot cope with future bad times. Rarely some one will be having bad time always, such a person has no other option but to work hard and keep himself /herself self restraint ,all the time.

    Now I am asking you one last and final question:-

    You are a rationalist and I think you need a reason to believe in something. Or may be you never believes in anything fully. But have you ever thought that there is a possibility of below.

    Existence of Some reality in this universe or beyond which is beyond the reach of modern science or even future science or always beyond reach of science?
    Just because you don’t understand do you think a truth is not truth? Will you deny yourselves the truth realized by great seers / knowledge seekers of the past? Why do you want to reinvent the wheel? Just use it
    How come you think people of old ages are dumb that they cannot realize anything beyond modern man can do (Because they do not had computers, or telescopes?)

    Reason I am asking is according to Vedas, God is beyond senses and imagination. God is beyond space -time. God is the absolute truth/reality only existing real entity . Soul or Atman is the self consciousness or the feeling of “I”, my mine. There is only one consciousness which is God. Hence there is this exact identity of God (Brahmam) and atman in advaita. Such a God cannot be understood by science. Only a seer who realized his true identity with God can know. But he even cannot write it in to a book

    Hinduism clearly says what is soul. It is the I consciousness . Self awareness. A robot has brain (chip/cpu) and mind (its functioning) . it has a mechanical body too. But it does not have a feeling of self/ I.This is the difference between a living thing and non living thing. This is the explanation of soul in Hinduism and whoever tries to prove it scientifically like soul is residing some where inside body or weight of body gest reduced (zakir naik) when one dies as soul departs etc are pseudo scientific Gurus

  • Two years before My mother forcefully took my thump impression and she get a recorded tape . I heard only once and I thought they are doing some fraud things to exactly predict my parents details and my past ..but almost 70 % predictions are happening eg: my father-in-laws ,mother-in-laws and my wife name and star was exactly predicted and my wife’s place of birth was predicted indirectly which is also correct but 30% details like appearance and other small insignificant informations are not correct. Now what I could conclude is there are some authentic information available in Nadi but we need to get the correct person who is genuin and should able to exactly understand the writings in Nadi.
    PS: never go for people who make lots of advertisements and pulling people forcefully. They are 100% fraud

  • @answering Ravi

    I think I have a fair idea of basic concepts of God, soul and after life in all religions be it Abrahamic ,Indic or other. And I am fully convinced of my religions concept as perfect and truth. May be I am a zakir naik of hindus. :).

    I would hope not. Zakir Naik is a comparative bigot, not an expert on comparative religion as he claims to be. He does not have any proper liberal arts education. Without that foundation, all he seems to have done is read a bunch of books with no context and came up with indefensible conclusions.

    Let me correct myself, genetics is not “pseudo science” it has a great deal of science in it. But there are many hypothesis based on observations which are not tested in all conditions.

    List some hypothesis then. Does not sound like the genetics I know. Modern genetics is highly quantitative.

    Just as modern medicine is also partially scientific.

    Modern medicine is as scientific as it can be. Medical research very scientific and human subjects research is quite regulated by government oversight.

    Since it has immediate effects, humanity today employs its brightest minds, its most sophisticated tools and most research resources towards medical research. The pay offs have been incredible in the last 100 years.

    However, these days it is just fashionable for arm-chair Internet critics (like you) to critique it. The education about it in our country has been so dismal, that people actually think Ayurveda and modern medicine are actually comparable in effectiveness.

    Now psychology is even less scientific.

    Less than Medicine, sure. It is just a difficult topic. Simple questions are easy enough to answer, but things get complicated very quickly and are difficult to control for.

    Many of its theories are either humbug or based on observable patterns on a certain group of peoples which may not be correct all the time for all peoples.

    Developing theories based on carefully documented observable patterns in a study population is how science gets done. Then the theories get critically and quantitatively vetted. That’s just normal science.

    You are trying to shoot the messenger here.

    I stated that psychology explores the cognitive flaws that makes people believe in Astrology predictions even when the predictions are statistically worthless. So you now want to throw mud on it. I also noted that parts of Psychology have replication problems. But the parts that demonstrate the psychology of horoscope acceptance are pretty reliable and can be replicated very consistently.

    Here is a professor demonstrating this experiment, as he does with every new class.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AyTbLqSBfI

    You argued that you expect physics level proof before you accept psychology. Yet you completely forget your own standards when it comes to astrology where not only is any scientific proof completely absent, but proof is consistently available at every level not only that it does not work but that it cannot work – i.e. explanations make zero sense, evidence shows it does not work, the phenomena that lead the public to be gullible about these things are well understood.

    Same story with Homeopathy. I would expect that with your lack of understanding of science you probably also think it works too… from your “personal experience”… even though… once again… the evidence (for which you do not have the statistical training to understand) is as clear as it can be – that it does not work, never worked and cannot ever work.

    Other ideologies and religions (other than Hinduism) are totally non scientific.

    All religion, is by definition, NOT a science. Nothing that is faith-based is a science. Religion is just one subset of faith-based thinking.

    Science uses critical thinking. Critical thinking is the opposite of faith-based thinking. You just haven’t been taught critical thinking.

    Back to astrology, the practical purpose of it is to caution some one and give hope to people. One is facing hard times.

    Use counseling. Counseling is rational, the counselor is expected to specialize in the problems in question and is aware of the resources. The answers are logical. Astrology is based on mystical mumbo-jumbo and provides arbitrary answers. That is not helping a person in need.

    He will be filled with hope if he come to know that there is a good time ahead.

    If the situation is quite bad, the odds are that better times are ahead. This is called the Regression Fallacy and is exploited by most quacks, including Astrology.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_fallacy

    The scientific method is structured to account for it. So pseudosciences like Astrology fail when tested scientifically.

    Rarely some one will be having bad time always, such a person has no other option but to work hard and keep himself /herself self restraint ,all the time.

    Astrologers don’t tell people to work hard. They typically tell them to pay money to perform a pooja or a graha shanti.

    Existence of Some reality in this universe or beyond which is beyond the reach of modern science or even future science or always beyond reach of science?

    Absolutely. Hypothetically that is possible. Science is based on data. When the data is COMPLETELY unavailable, things may never be known. None of this applies to Astrology though.

    Just because you don’t understand do you think a truth is not truth?

    There are a few kinds of thinking.

    NOT accepting a claim until a proof is presented is critical thinking.
    Accepting a claim when no proof is available because it is not disproven yet is faith-based thinking.
    Accepting a claim even when something is disproven is ignorance thinking.

    Astrologers used to appeal to faith-based thinking. These days they are appealing to ignorance thinking.

    Will you deny yourselves the truth realized by great seers / knowledge seekers of the past?

    They were mostly talking nonsense. You can seek knowledge all you want, but you got to produce verifiable knowledge at the end. You have to document your method. You just can’t hand wave and expect intelligent people to believe.

    Why do you want to reinvent the wheel?

    I don’t want to reinvent the wheel. But I check if the wheels actually work by rolling them i.e. replication of claims. Astrology said it had a working wheel and it was rolled. But it just fell flat. But Astrologers tie a rope to it, keep dragging it through the dust and keep insisting that dragging is in fact rolling.

    Just use it

    I will use your Geocentric astronomy when you can get ISRO to launch satellites entirely with it. When a rabid dog bites you, please look up what the Ayurvedic cure for that is. Hint: it is a pooja first.

    How come you think people of old ages are dumb that they cannot realize anything beyond modern man can do (Because they do not had computers, or telescopes?)

    I just told you that I don’t think people in the old ages were dumb. I just said they lacked the intellectual foundations and resources. If you don’t have calculus at a certain level, you just can’t calculate certain things. If you never had microscopes, you will come up with cock-and-bull theories about disease. If you don’t have the math of statistics, most of what you attempt in medical research will necessarily fail.

    Recently, people figured out how to scale computers much better. All of a sudden, many things we could not do before became possible. You can’t run before you walk. Humanity was crawling until fairly recently. We (you are still in the crawling phase with respect to intellectual methods) are just beginning to get up (last 300 years or so) and run now.

    Reason I am asking is according to Vedas

    Have you actually read the vedas or did you just read other people’s blogs about them?

    Hinduism clearly says what is soul.

    It does not. Rig Veda says it does not know what the soul is. It first admits (commendable for that era) that and then tries to say what the soul isn’t. It never occurred to the authors of Rig Veda that they don’t even know if the soul exists. But that is asking for too much from that era.

    It is the I consciousness . Self awareness.

    That’s just new age revisionism from twits like Deepak Chopra.

    A robot has brain (chip/cpu) and mind (its functioning) . it has a mechanical body too.

    You just don’t get it. There is no such thing as a soul. There is ZERO proof for a soul. Soul is just a placeholder concept that all cultures invented to explain what they did not understand Life/Biology/Brain.

    Look, I know you think you understand science… but you really don’t get even the basics. You can’t understand science until you do original empirical research using the scientific method. Science education in India has generally failed Indians (rote vs practice). That happens in every country though, at our income level. Hopefully, things will get better in the next few decades. But until then pseudosciences like Astrology will continue to exploit Indians.

  • @Ravi
    Some of your arguments are genuine attempts, but some are biased. You said, “It is the I consciousness . Self awareness. ” is Deepak Chopra’s invention and Hinduism does not define atman.

    Read wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%80tman_(Hinduism)
    All 6 darshanas (philosophies)in Hinduism like yoga,nyaya, vaisheshika, Vedanta, meemamsa and sankhya agree to concept of soul although they have little differences in interpretation

    See meeemamsa concept

    Ātman, in the ritualism-based Mīmāṃsā school of Hinduism, is an eternal, omnipresent, inherently active essence that is identified as I-Consciousness.[53][54] Unlike all other schools of Hinduism, Mimamsaka scholars considered ego and Atman as same. Within Mimamsa school, there were divergence of views. Kumārila, for example, held that Atman is the object of I-Consciousness, while Prabhakara held Atman is the subject of I-Consciousness.[53] Mimamsaka Hindus believed that what matters is virtuous actions and rituals completed with perfection, and it is this that creates merit and imprints knowledge on Atman, whether one is aware or not aware of Atman. Their foremost emphasis was formulation and understanding of laws/duties/virtuous life (dharma) and consequent perfect execution of kriyas (actions). The Upanishadic discussion of Atman, to them, was of secondary importance.[54][55] While other schools disagreed and discarded the Atma theory of Mimamsa, they incorporated Mimamsa theories on ethics, self-discipline, action and dharma as necessary in one’s journey towards “Know your Atman”.[56][57]

    You guys do not want to credit Hinduism, or want to be politically correct, hence not giving its due respect.

    I challenge you, the I consciousness is present in living, not in living even in a very intelligent robot.. The boy tells Arnold Shwarzenegger (terminator 2) not to kill humans but he can kill robots. You are a humanist and probably an animal activist too .You may vote for animal rights. Tell me with your scientific knowledge what is the difference between a very intelligent robot and humans/animals? Do you have any explanation like the clear explanation Hinduism has regarding Self?

    You are asking me whether I read Vedas? Much more than many I am accustomed with Vedas. I am supposed to learn Taithireeya samhita, brahmana and aranyaka parts of Krishna yajur veda, which I know few.

    I read (not completely) Adi Sankara’s commentaries(Bhashyam) on Upanishads, Gita etc

  • @Ravi-

    You said calculus is not available in ancient India. This is wrong. Read below wiki pages

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerala_school_of_astronomy_and_mathematics
    See how these namboodiri mathematicians Madhava of sangama grama (Irinjalakuda), parameshwara, Neelakantha somayaji, Jyeshthadeva, Melpathur and non Brahmin achyuta pisharody and achytua panicker were well versed even in calculus and their contributions.. They believed in astrology. Satyameva Jayate (Truth triumphs) .First understand your culture and country before going behind what semitic/Abrahamic fools or westerners say

    God (attribute less in pure form)Nirguna Brahmam is absolute truth, beyond birth and death, beyond space, time, senses and even imagination . SO is soul because individual souls(jivatma) is exactly equal to paramatma (The souls of Vishnu,Shiva and Godess Durga) =Para Brahmam.

    Hinduism is non dualist absolute monism. Look at Quran 67:17.it says Allah is in heaven. SO Allah is not beyond space. Zakir Naik try to reinterpret this verse . But that creates another problem.It contradicts his view that Quran is clear message for all people and all ages as it is subject to interpretation..When Quran says Allah some times speak to some prophets, then it proves Allah is not beyond senses (ear and its functioning hearing). Some religions consider itselfstrict monotheistic, but believes in God incarnating as a human (only as one man). If God can assume one form he can assume multiple forms. God assumes forms (Saguna Brahmam) for sake of devotees.

  • @Ravi

    All 6 darshanas (philosophies)in Hinduism like yoga,nyaya, vaisheshika, Vedanta, meemamsa and sankhya agree to concept of soul although they have little differences in interpretation

    Whether they agree or not, it does not take away from the basic fact that souls don’t in fact exist. Come back when you have data.

    Ātman, in the ritualism-based Mīmāṃsā school of Hinduism, is an eternal, omnipresent, inherently active essence that is identified as I-Consciousness.

    Blah, blah, blah. Earlier you mocked genetics and psychology saying they have theories without rigorous proofs (even when they do). And here you are now, trying to convince me with pure theories with zero validation.

    You guys do not want to credit Hinduism, or want to be politically correct, hence not giving its due respect.

    I give Hinduism plenty of credit when warranted. Compare Hinduism with other -isms. Don’t compare religion with science however.

    I challenge you, the I consciousness is present in living, not in living even in a very intelligent robot..

    If you think that, it is for YOU to prove that. It is not for me to disprove that.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof

    Note that your argument is about showing that sentience can NEVER exist outside natural biological constructs.

    Tell me with your scientific knowledge what is the difference between a very intelligent robot and humans/animals?

    You mean robots like T-800 that only exist in movies that were written into the plot to appease 80s general public views of the world? If you notice, fictional AI got more “soulful” in even slightly later movies – the Oracle from the Matrix, Bicentennial Man etc.

    We have not gotten to a point where we have sentience in our Artificial Intelligence implementations. So it is a moot question, until then. BTW, I and my colleagues actually use AI techniques at work. AI stagnated for several decades, but the recent work has kickstarted it again (Software side – Deep Neural Networks esp. Convolutional Neural Networks, Hardware side – GPU clusters).

    I do not believe there is any reason to believe that if a biological, lipoprotein brain is fully replicated in-silico, there would effectively be any differences between the sentience of either.

    But we are still several decades away from that. There is no magic going on here. It is just a matter of solving for complexity – things that took billions of years to evolve. Brain is still the most complexly organized matter and we are trying to replicate it using entirely different materials – which makes it challenging.

    Sentience is all there is. No souls. Sentience is an emergent phenomenon, not a thing in itself. There is no stuff that is say, hopping from creature to creature… getting rewarded/punished etc. If I remove/stimulate parts of your brain, your consciousness will change. Your consciousness is not independent from your brain. When you die and your brains breaks down, your consciousness will naturally cease to exist. Pretending otherwise may make you feel better, but that simply isn’t the reality.

    Do you have any explanation like the clear explanation Hinduism has regarding Self?

    You are reading metaphysics… and it is amusing. However, metaphysics does not get us far. Science does. Science does not pretend to have answers before it has the methods and data. You can find plenty of philosophies regarding self. What you like is a subjective matter. It is a matter of preference, not facts. I have a very different idea of self, compared to you.

    You are asking me whether I read Vedas? Much more than many I am accustomed with Vedas.

    “Much more than many” is not impressive. The bar rather low. People in India like to talk about Vedas. Few actually bother opening the actual books.

    You said calculus is not available in ancient India. This is wrong.

    I know. I know that several elements of calculus were independently developed in India. Can you say what problems it was actually applied for?

    My point wasn’t that West is better. Quite the contrary, I feel that the narrative of history of science and philosophy is not well balanced enough right now and that Chinese and Indian contributions need to be better acknowledged (and western scholars generally agree – no one is disagreeing, but the work must come from quality scholarship from the East where not all the institutional chips are yet in place), although I have nothing in common with the nuts that think there actually were vimanas in the past.

    No – My point was that the Geocentric Astronomy developed in that way because only Geometry was available at that time.

    Hinduism is non dualist absolute monism.

    I read theology from proper scholarly sources. All this is not news to me. But theology is theology, metaphysics is metaphysics and science is science. You don’t get much actually done with theology and mystical metaphysics. You get stuff done when you get empirical and quantitative. Theology and metaphysics have often gotten in the way of progress because they gave an illusion of knowledge.

    Hinduism is non dualist absolute monism. Look at Quran 67:17.it says Allah is in heaven. SO Allah is not beyond space.

    So what’s your point? That Indians in India, who had more fertile lands were better able to afford more leisure and were able to formulate more grand and elaborate fictional models about the cosmos and existence than did desert tribes under strife? If you want to argue that Indian theology is more bold, subtle and nuanced compared to its peers at the time… fine – I am not arguing. But subtle or simplistic, everything ultimately must be objectively proven or it is just fiction.

    None of this however demonstrates that Astrology works – which is the topic of the forum. If you want to show it works, you have to do so with empirical/statistical studies, not with all this hand waving and appeals to theology.

  • @Ravi- I still say the I consciousness is Atman (self) and it has nothing to do with brain. It is just a mapping with brain and body. bacteria/plants etc which does not have a brain identifies the self with some functions of their body. Animals identify their “self” with their body and certain other functions of mind like kids, attraction to opposite gender , fear etc. Still better are barbaric humans who identify their self with body and ego. The more one is aware of self the higher is his consciousness. The enlightened are the ones who identify their self with supreme Para Brahmam consciousness (God) who attain salvation. The problem with Buddhism is Buddhist teachings are not clear on concept of soul or even moksha (salvation) . Just say that desire is root cause of problems and follow 8 fold path of Buddha. I hope Buddha himself is really enlightened. This is why Adi Sankara easily defeated Buddhist theology and eliminated it from Indian subcontinent. Anyway word Buddha means enlightened. It is just a title. The Buddha mentioned in puranas is different from founder of Buddhism. The puranic Buddha lived in Bodh gaya, and his mother’s name was Anjana not Maya .in fact Buddhism originated as an ascetic order (fourth ashrama – samnyasa order) but later it became a religion.

    You made a point “I do not believe there is any reason to believe that if a biological, lipoprotein brain is fully replicated in-silico, there would effectively be any differences between the sentience of either.”

    Well if such a scenario arise, when robots become emotional and behave exactly same way as humans and they socially interact and love each other, then I hope I can see you in the front of a Robo-rights campaign. I don’t see a reason you must deny their rights just because their brain is electronic and ours is biological.

    Now why I am connecting religion with astrology is because, astrology is a vedanga (organ with which we know Vedas). The others being seeksha , chandas (meter of poems) , vyakarana (grammer), nirukta (etymology), kalpa (philosophy esp mimamsa ) and Jyotish.

    Back to astrology, as I told you earlier if you say it’s predictions are not based on science, I agree. you can call it blind faith, but as I said many are experiencing / perceiving it as true, so they will continue to believe. You cannot do anything. Reason why Indians still cling to this is simple. Because Indian astrology is the best and most accurate.

    I agree , partially with you that the geocentric astronomy in astrology is of not much practical use. But I object to you if you say the relative motion of 5 planets, sun, moon and lunar nodes around earth is inaccurate .

    Many people approach astrology differently. it will diagnose the problem but will not solve. Also nothing can substitute hard work.

    One more thing, even I feel too much concentration soul and after life -liberation killed scientific quest in ancient India. At least mimamsa philosophy believed in action (karma),up until salvation, but later Vedanta and yoga philosophies eclipsed it so much that karma’s importance became lesser and lesser visible. This might have lead to more importance on superstitions and a belief that astrology is some magic that can solve personal level problems. Rather astrology is just indicators on where we need to caution more and put more hard work.

  • @answering Ravi

    bacteria/plants etc which does not have a brain identifies the self with some functions of their body. Animals identify their “self” with their body and certain other functions of mind like kids, attraction to opposite gender , fear etc.

    Do you understand Evolution or are you a denialist who thinks it is just a “theory”? Without those basic instincts coming into play by natural selection, life would not have existed in the first place. You don’t need to postulate a soul for that.

    Still better are barbaric humans who identify their self with body and ego. The more one is aware of self the higher is his consciousness. The enlightened are the ones who identify their self with supreme Para Brahmam consciousness (God) who attain salvation.

    And I would say that the enlightened are those who can see past the mystical bakwas and think clearly, critically, rationally and with precision. Spouting a few abstract mystical metaphysical claims should no longer impress anyone else. We don’t need seers. We need more scientists – lot’s more… and not ones with paper degrees and seniority based advancement, those who consult astrology before doing astronomy.

    I don’t see a reason you must deny their rights just because their brain is electronic and ours is biological.

    Indeed, why should we?

    Now why I am connecting religion with astrology

    And that is the only place it belongs.

    but as I said many are experiencing / perceiving it as true, so they will continue to believe. You cannot do anything.

    I agree. I cannot do much. People like me are far too outnumbered compared to people like you.

    China was behind us 40 years ago. They just surpassed USA in Artificial Intelligence / Deep Learning research output. And you are still too busy debating Atma and Astrology.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/10/13/china-has-now-eclipsed-us-in-ai-research/

    People like you ensure that we intellectually stay behind our next door neighbors for several generations at least. Congrats. Build more temples with loud speakers on every street. Debate some more on how Vedas are absolutely awesome. Let’s completely forget about building libraries, student labs and teaching critical thought at a young age. Pfft, so Western. Who needs them? They can just recite after the teachers and memorize for the exam. Let us bury those PISA scores and pretend everything is just fine.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/education/news/India-chickens-out-of-international-students-assessment-programme-again/articleshow/20375670.cms

    Yep, we are brilliant. If “many are experiencing / perceiving it as true”, it must only mean that it is true. How can so many of us be wrong? What else can it be?

    Reason why Indians still cling to this is simple. Because Indian astrology is the best and most accurate.

    It isn’t as if Indians have done meticulous quantitative evaluations to assess our astrology vs. anything else before choosing. You, as an Astrology enthusiast, don’t even know much about Western Astrology.

    No, Indians cling to Astrology for the same reason they cling to Homeopathy and humoral medicine: 15th century minds in front of 21st century computers.

    I already pointed you to a study (Narlikar) that showed that Indian Astrology failed just as dismally as Western Astrology.

    It is simply the Forer/Barnum effect
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnum_effect

    But I object to you if you say the relative motion of 5 planets, sun, moon and lunar nodes around earth is inaccurate .

    I already told you that the geocentric stuff is fine if all you have are subsistence farmer’s questions.

    Many people approach astrology differently. it will diagnose the problem but will not solve.

    Again, empty words. Diagnosis is a testable claim. What do the tests say? Astrology diagnoses nothing except the gullibility of the customer. And most astrologers disagree with you. They insist that paying them for rituals will solve problems as well. Again… refer to Regression Fallacy.

  • Ravi,
    I saw a news yesterday. May be you also would have seen. It says robots can never have self consciousness

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2628150/Robots-NEVER-feelings-Mathematics-reveals-droids-experience-emotions-like-us.html

    I am not scientist. I am a person who believes in Hinduism what you may call blind faith. Per Hinduism what I understand is the lack of self consciousness is basic difference an animal/man and an inteligent robot.

    We Hindus have no problem with Darwins theory. AS a JNU professor opined, Hinduism’s conflict is more with misinformations spread by historians and social scientists and not with science or even rationalists/atheists.

    Out of curiosity I am asking few questions to you which normally people like Naik as atheists.

    Universe is so well ordered, so don’t you think it has a designer/ creator (like Abrahamic religionists believe) or a cause/phenomenon /absolute reality behind it (like Hindus believe)?
    Don’t you believe in law of karma? people who do sins get away with it? Wont they never receive the fruits of their actions in this birth or next births or in so called heavens and hell? Btw I don’t think any one deserves to be punished eternally /infinitely in hell for their finite crimes they do (even for a person like hitler) just as Islamic/Christian or jews may believe.

  • I saw a news yesterday. May be you also would have seen. It says robots can never have self consciousness

    In my view, these kind of back-and-forths are premature. As I understand it, it is simply a refutation of some one’s “provisional manifesto”.

    Universe is so well ordered, so don’t you think it has a designer/ creator (like Abrahamic religionists believe) or a cause/phenomenon /absolute reality behind it (like Hindus believe)?

    No evidence of a designer at all.
    No evidence of any other reality.
    It has to be ordered. There are clear underlying properties of matter that define all phenomenon.
    I am simply evidence-based… and dislike fancy conjectures. Their record is a matter of evidence as well, i.e… quite poor.

    Don’t you believe in law of karma?

    No. But society and conscience, both evolutionary developments, make it appear as if it exists. Cognitive flaws contribute to the appearance as well.

    If a person commits an injustice, he or the society will rationalize any later suffering to that person as caused by the earlier act due to posthoc effects. The society also tacitly tries to punish any bad actors the best it can.

    people who do sins get away with it?

    Yes, they can. Nature, by itself, has no concept of justice and fairness. Societies however do.

    First, you have to define sin, of course. Different cultures disagree on that, aside from the basic definition of collectively perceived injustice. It is a cultural value, which evolves with time and varies across locales.

    Wont they never receive the fruits of their actions in this birth or next births or in so called heavens and hell?

    When there are no such things as souls: reincarnations, heavens, hells are simply impossible. The concept of the soul is a deeper concept than God. The soul is the foundation of religion, not God. Once one realizes that there is no soul, and that our consciousness is a product of our very complex biology, religion simply melts away.

    I am not presenting this as a personal view. I am pointing to the complete absence of any verifiable/objective proof for a soul. The faith in soul is the crux of religion, not faith in whatever gods.

  • @Ravi – Thank you. Nice talking to you on various topics. I thoroughly enjoyed discussing with you. I hope you will do the best to society with your scientific knowledge and interest

    Your observation is interesting “The concept of the soul is a deeper concept than God. ” I think this is true. However Adi Sankara’s Advaita (absolute monism) says this soul is exactly identical with Brahmam/ God. So it implies that basically all souls are the same. The verse purnamada purnamadam purnat… purnasya purnamadaya purnamevavashishyate in Isavasyopanishad? means Complete / whole infinite Brahmam – complete/whole / infinite Brahmam = Complete / whole infinite Brahmam

    Purna (complete) – purna = purna. Part of Brahmam is whole. So God is whole.

    “I know mathematically infinity – infinity is probably undefined.”

    One reason I am theist is I still believe in a Self /I couceousness as a product of soul and not that of complex functioning of brain. Also I perceive law of Karma to be working in many instances. My perceptions and experiences keeps me theist. Not fear of God or eternal punishment

  • This Govi Jayaraman is a fraud. He just gets the date of birth, time and everything from us and puts that in a computer and tells our astrology. Its not Nadi, also he will ask everything softly about our parents, job etc and then atlast he repeats what all we have told to him and records that like he was reading that all from the leaves.

    Its full of commission based play. All the Auto or Taxi people will take us to him only. Even if U ask them to take you to somewhere they will tell that only Jayaram is the best and all.

    Dont go to any nadi astrologers near the temple. Before reaching the temple there is a junction. Take left from that junction and there some nadi astrologers are there in that street.

    Original nadi astrologers wont come out and canvas you. Also they wont ask anything more than your thumb impression. Rest they will tell back everything from the leaves including your date of birth. All other types are frauds, dont waste your time and money. This GOVI. JAYARAMAN is the number one fraud of that area

  • @VIPIN RAJ
    There are no such things as non-fraudulent nadi astrologers. They are all frauds. At least some regular astrologers may genuinely believe what they say actually works, but to practice nadi astrology, one has to actually know that they are practicing a fraud.

    Why? Because the leaves are bought. They are not thousands of years old written by some sage and handed down. They are bought from a cottage industry that produces them with random scribblings and artificially makes them look old with some boiling process. They are mere props. There is no “your leaf”. They are reused for several clients. That is why they don’t hand “your leaf” to you after the session. There is no language on that leaf. You can test it in simple ways. Never mind dating the leaf with technology. You can just take a photo of the leaf and take it to several nadi guys independently and ask them to translate each word and note the consistency. Don’t answer any questions at all. Just ask them to translate word by word, alphabet by alphabet, without any of your personal context. They won’t be able to because there are no words to begin with.

  • Two days back I went to a nadi centre that person have received many awards and he claimed that he even rendered his service to few south Indian actor and actors…He initially took tumb impression and initial only…after that he started to read the palm leaves….he framed each question in such a way that he got every answer from me
    For eg : he askd me are u a graduate -Yes
    Engineering -No
    Medical-No
    Arts-Yes
    B.com-No
    BCA-No
    Viscom-No
    BSc-No
    BBA-Yes
    Thn this person askd me…whether I am searching for Job…I said yes…after cleverly getting all info frm me..he started to read from the leaves ..he said.I ll be getting Job within this year..he mentioned tht I ll be getting one degree only but actually it’s not so…I am pursuing mba and cs…..I think this person frgt to ask me questions regarding higher education and he said a lot of tragedic events will happen in my life due to past karma to overcome this …I need to perform puja mentioned in 13 and 14th kandam…I am person who had a lot of believe in nadi astrology now I started to loose faith in this…

  • Any science, astrology or medical diagnosis should be done by right person. If you land up in wrong hands, it will always look wrong and fraud only. How do we authenticate the information posted on this article. Who these people are.

  • Dear friend hi, very first many thanks to choose nirmukta.com, I am here to help people with my abilities of psychic sense and astrology. I am doing practice for more than twenty years. I hope you will get all your answers in my report and you will get all the things up to date with time frame, I will suggest you precautions and I will tell you about hurdles and obstacles in your life. You will get an in depth, true and genuine report with with several phases of life. You can ask here about any thing which is mysterious for you and you are looking answers like love, study, career, marriage, divorce, extra marital affairs, business, travel, health, children . . . . . . even any phase of life .

    Regards,

    Dinesh Sharma

  • Dear friend hi, very first many thanks to choose nirmukta.com, I am here to help people with my abilities of psychic sense and astrology. I am doing practice for more than twenty years. I hope you will get all your answers in my report and you will get all the things up to date with time frame, I will suggest you precautions and I will tell you about hurdles and obstacles in your life. You will get an in depth, true and genuine report with with several phases of life. You can ask here about any thing which is mysterious for you and you are looking answers like love, study, career, marriage, divorce, extra marital affairs, business, travel, health, children . . . . . . even any phase of life .

    Regards,

    Dinesh Sharma
    ask2astrologer@hotmail.com
    https://www.facebook.com/astrodinesh

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  • Mr. Rajesh, a famous Tamil actor,a scion of a Christian Rationalist family and a rationalist himself, wrote a serial account in a Tamil monthly magazine years back on how he came to be overwhelmed with Nadi Joshyam. Mr. Narendra Nayak might use his experiences to explore the veracity of this system’s claims. Besides, scientists are particular about rejecting anecdotal inferences as research outcomes. How come one can debunk a system by the activities of a fraud practicing that system. The best way is to provide the astrologers the required materials viz thumb impression and challenge them at Vaitheeswaran koil to make predictions that can be compared with the real facts. We assume if past is accurate, the future will also be so.

  • @kallan krishnaraj

    a famous Tamil actor
    scion of a Christian Rationalist family

    Perhaps, actors and actresses should not be considered as standard-bearing intellectuals? But we as a society seem to think they are. That is a problem.

    There is no Christian Rationalism and Hindu Rationalism, just as there is no such thing as Western Science and Indian Science. If anything, it is an oxymoron. Unless you mean Theistic Rationalism, which is just a form of apologetics, not rationalism, as the term is generally understood today.

    predictions that can be compared with the real facts.

    There already are enough scientific studies on Astrology. I already linked to and referred to Carlson and Jayanth Narlikar studies above. Read them first.

    There are an unlimited variations of astrology. There are even several and indeterminate variations in Nadi fraud itself. Scientists aren’t going to come and debunk every time someone makes up yet another “system”, only for the “No True Scotsman” game to start. So far, every system of astrology that has been tested, failed miserably.

  • @Ravi Thank you for your taking pains to reply me. Please note I am well past that age of hero worship. Christians do not accept astrology. Besides, according to his own confession this actor was a theistic rationalist, as you have said. If he were an original credulous person like me I would not have quoted him. Now, I plan to take all your points of proving ‘thumb lines reading’ is a fraud to an astrologer of this variety and seek his points to prove / disprove your findings. I greatly appreciate your tireless endeavor to disseminate the scientific temper among people who you think are losing their time money and energy on superstitions and frauds.

  • @kallan krishnaraj

    Christians do not accept astrology.

    Well, I don’t know what the numbers on Indian Christians are, but in the presumably Christian West, the numbers of people who believe in Astrology is not low.

    https://www.nsf.gov/statistics/seind14/index.cfm/chapter-7/c7h.htm

    They may not arrange marriages and perform poojas based on natal charts, but credulity is universal. We just take it to a whole another level.

    Now, I plan to take all your points

    Not just my points, please consult a statistician at your local university if you intend to seriously prove or disprove anything – designing a test has a lot more to it than a casual specification, if you have not had any formal training in research design. Jayanth Narlikar’s report is very concise and a good template to start with.

    http://www.currentscience.ac.in/Downloads/article_id_096_05_0641_0643_0.pdf

    Take photos of the leaves they claim to read. There should be clear apriori demarcation criterion of the outcomes and the tester should not fall for cold reading. Read up on cold reading techniques.

    These tests should be double blinded i.e. you should not know which thumb print belongs to who when you submit them, so that extracting such information from you becomes impossible. But that is not how they have set up their game. They insist on cold reading, which makes rigorous testing largely moot. This article demonstrates some of the cold reading at play.

    “For example they would tell you that your name starts with certain alphabets and when you deny they would ask some other question about whether your father used a wear a cap and your mother a sari. After getting responses and some more details they would come back and ask whether your name starts with some other alphabets.”

    How do you plan to adjust for this?

  • @Ravi, Namaskaar! One ‘thumb reader’ said that they have a number of palm leaves from which ‘yours’ has to be chosen. They ask for simple known facts like names,number of siblings, occupation of prediction seeker, their spouses, parents etc. That seems to avoid cumbersome and time consuming processes like taking one line ( with its meaning) and collecting all palm leaves that contain this meaning. Then they have to repeat for all other lines. Whereas once they arrive easily at a conclusion that a particular leaf tallys to your thumb impression , they can continue with the predictions. So, just to quicken the process, they need these details.We believe on the assumption that if our names,occupations, parents details are found ‘there’ ‘correctly’, other predictions should also be correct. I am neither a scientist nor an astrologer. My interpretation might be faulty. But I hope you understand what I mean, This time I will see if I can take a photo of the concerned leaf so that there is scope for cross check. BTW, John Abraham, an American scientist has written a book ‘Astrology is a science.’ I happened to read its Tamil version. What do scientists like you say on that?

  • @kallan krishnaraj
    If you have no science background (I am not looking down on that – perhaps you invested your time in other pursuits), it is all the more reason for you to pair up with some local person of science with a skeptical bent. Research Design is a learned skill. It is extremely easy to fall for cognitive biases (there are hundreds of them, but a few key ones) if you don’t know what they are. You won’t be able to properly evaluate things like these without the necessary education. Remember these are people with decades of professional experience in cold reading. Unless you prepare yourself, you will fall for it – even if you are otherwise intelligent.

    I have no idea who this John Abraham is, but in the scientific community, there is consensus that Astrology is a perfect example of a pseudoscience. Any one who thinks Astrology is a science is simply exposing the fact that they do not understand what science is in the slightest.

    Historically, when Indians used the term Shastra, they simply meant “a system” i.e. a discipline that is complex enough. Shastras were generally presumed to be true. There was no critical evaluation for most part. I say for most part, because we do have some ancient Sanskrit texts that show that Astrology (more often, Astrologers, it would appear) was mocked even back then. So there were documented critical ideas, here and there. However there seem to not have been any actual critical inquiry, unsurprising, since statistics had not been invented yet.

    For astrology to actually be a science, every statement it makes to correlate a certain star position to a life outcome, data (necessarily quantitative… with confidence intervals) has to be presented. The data must be collected with great care, ensured to be free from biases such as the Forer effect (Do lookup the Forer Effect and say how you plan to adjust for it). Critical replications must be conducted. Astrology texts do not contain any such data. Instead, there are claims that people take on faith – the exact opposite approach to science.

    Once the authority is accepted (whether it is religion, astrology, political theory or a fake medical system), it is very easy to convince that reality conforms to it, even when it does not. This happens everywhere, not just in astrology. This is why we do science to check… and astrology failed all tests.

    So far, I have not even seen an Astrologer who even understands the most basic statistics. Their education on such math is so dismal that they often think they succeeded when the math shows they did worse than a coin flip on a binary question (Eg: Narlikar paper – concluding remarks. This is quite common). And astrologers have not shown any interest or enthusiasm on their own to critically appraise their system. The most basic scientific instincts are lacking.

    Finally, the idea that objects light years away have minute and petty effects on the social aspects of life experience is completely absurd from any scientific stand-point. Zero basis. Zero evidence. Zero is a strong word, not a casual descriptor.

    Here are a few random short videos on Forer Effect:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPCsCiOqmXA
    Everyone was confident that they got right predictions, even things that they were sure were very personal. This is just psychology.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNQIGtFJmrQ

  • @Ravi,
    i am not saying astrology is science. In fact i agree that it is not.
    What you categorize in science something which is not scientific yet works?

    another question:- Some say that there are yogis in himalayas (i am no fan of such yogis) who wear only a cotton loin cloth , go barefoot sometimes meditate for days without food or water in high altitude extremely cold places? Has science made any study of them?

    I saw a program in a left-wing TV channel. A mentalist helped a lady bend a coin. i don`t think that channel will promote any tricks if it really was a trick. While spoon bending is dismissed as trick by scientific community many claims to be performing it .
    Some time people are overwhelmed by some personal experiences which their rational mind cannot comprehend. As long as it is there people will believe in super natural

  • @Vijay, We understand science depends mostly on the powers of our senses. We also hear of ‘placebo effects’, paranormal powers ‘etc. Are they included in ‘science’. A famous doctor says all diseases originate in our minds (and are solved there). But other doctors seem to give prominence to drugs and laugh at his foolishness. As for me, I have already submitted in this forum that I have a prediction notes prepared 4 or 5 decades back that tallies with reality. Astrology may not be a science as is reckoned by scientists but it ‘works’ somehow. Besides, the book, Astrology is a science’ by John Abraham supports its acceptability as something ‘working’ for our benefit. My doubt is whether to discard it because it does not conform to what science requires or to accept it because it works. Of course, the inefficiency of practitioners does not count here. Once I had not mentioned the time of birth correctly.( It was AM-PM-difference) The predictions went wrong.This astrologer is my friend. He lamented for his failure. Then by accident we found out my insufficient feeding of facts. Then everything went right. But, Ravi says it is their technique to take us for a ride. I don’t know what do the scientists say on the predictions of Nostradamus!

  • @kallan krishnaraj,

    Ravi is intelligent and knows great deal about science. May be its we who don’t know how science works.
    But nevertheless i saw below link. It says science explains things based on evidence collected. It does not prove or disprove anything right or wrong. it is not binary (0 or 1) like mathematics or mechanics . Based on what is written in the below link science can only say that “Based on evidence collected there is no pattern found or best explanation available hence rejecting” sort of thing. It cannot prove or disprove . Did i get it correctly?

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/200811/common-misconceptions-about-science-i-scientific-proof

  • Edit: without links

    @Vijay

    It does not prove or disprove anything right or wrong. it is not binary (0 or 1) like mathematics or mechanics.

    Correct. Scientific “proof” is simply the preponderance of evidence, not in the sense of mathematics or formal logic. Empirical “proof” is provisional – given best available data and the most reasonable analysis methods. Conclusions have to change if either changes. So the proper term is evidence, rather than proof. I swap them occasionally in colloquial use myself, but we really should not.

    What you categorize in science something which is not scientific yet works?

    If you can show reliably that something works, it is already scientific. They are not two different things. The disagreement between a believer and a skeptic/scientist comes with what constitutes that proper showing is. A believer is eager and errs. The skeptic/scientist is very cautious and is much less likely to err.

    another question:- Some say that there are yogis in himalayas

    Apparently, there are even known cases of people surviving frozen in snow for several weeks and recovering after. It isn’t as if science is placing a rigid limit of what temperature range a person can endure. I don’t have anything to say about hearsay, but sure, if people survive in cold, then they do. Some are better equipped than others. Such a finding would not challenge the scientific method.

    I saw a program in a left-wing TV channel. A mentalist helped a lady bend a coin.

    Please lookup Uri Geller and the famous debunking by James Randi, the most well-known rationalist activist of our times. The Geller case was probably Randi’s most well-known debunking.

    Uri Geller claimed to bend spoons using only his mind. US TV channels gave him a platform several times, until he was critically examined under Randi’s guidance.

    youtube .com/watch?v=M9w7jHYriFo
    (bonus material: preacher debunking)

    Very similar to “The Great Tantra Challenge”
    en.wikipedia .org/wiki/The_Great_Tantra_Challenge
    youtube .com/results?search_query=Sanal+Edamaruku%3A+Tantra+Challenge
    These so-called super-powers only last until they are put under a magnifying glass.

    During the WWII and especially during the cold war, when US spy agencies had funds that need not be carefully accounted for, they went to town with all kinds of research that would otherwise would get laughed at in a review process. They tested all kinds of “psychic” phenomena. Initially, even their investigators were fooled, but gradually it became apparent that the effects were not real at all.

    If someone bends a coin:
    Your thinking should be along the lines of:
    – Is that a real coin or is it a prop?
    – Was the coin switched? Were the hands or sleeves checked properly? Was the camera always on them or did they briefly pass aside out of view?
    – Can I trust the person who handed it as simply an objective audience member and not a plant?
    – If the audience member did it, is he/she a plant? Magicians frequently employ such plants in audience.
    – Will the performer consent to scrutiny by rationalists under their controlled conditions?
    etc. etc.

    Just type in: coin bend – into say, Youtube and you will get all kinds of hits for it on how to do these tricks. We should not casually conclude that there are super-powers involved.

    These are simple magic tricks. They are great entertainment. I would pay money to watch it for entertainment. But when it is claimed to be real, it is either fraud or even just damaging the scientific temper of the society.

    How can so many people be fooled? Sadly, people are like that. How many millions believed that Satyanarayana Raju of Shirdi could pull vibhuti and gold ornaments out of thin air? Even when he was getting out a small linga, half out of the mouth, he was retching as if it was still in his throat. Nobody seemed to question the antics. Even when the BBC videos documented his sleight of hand, millions still believe he was divine/magical. They are a lost cause, I guess. But some do understand.

    i don`t think that channel will promote any tricks if it really was a trick.

    So the channel didn’t know any better, happens quite often. The author of this article has written about it elsewhere.

    Some time people are overwhelmed by some personal experiences which their rational mind cannot comprehend. As long as it is there people will believe in super natural

    I agree. There is an altered psychological state that bewilders people. But science can replicate it with 90% precision using Psilocybin. It is just an electrochemical activity. Some of us are more wired to it than others. People need to be educated about it before they experience it so that they are not caught off-guard. They need to be told approximately (since it varies a bit) how that experience will be, how an MRI scan during the period looks like etc. and how we can induce it and with what reliability. Even then, people are still overwhelmed.

    science.howstuffworks .com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/brain-religion.htm

    @kallan krishnaraj

    We understand science depends mostly on the powers of our senses.

    Not at all, it has gone far beyond the senses. Science depends on data and mathematical analysis, not our senses. We are inherently not very good at logic, beyond a certain degree. We need to train ourselves in it.

    There is nothing sensory about detecting gravitational waves for instance.

    We also hear of ‘placebo effects’, paranormal powers ‘etc. Are they included in ‘science’.

    Yes. It is science that discovered the placebo effect. It is only science that adjusts for it in every single medical research where it may intervene. So yeah, it is entirely “included” in science. Doctors employ it when they suspect that actual treatment is unnecessary.

    Fake medical systems are entirely a result of placebo effect or regression to the mean. It is they that do not acknowledge it and insist that their snake-oils were acting all along.

    Person get a small ailment. He takes a homeopathic pill. He feels he is better. He therefore concludes that the pill made him better. But did it?

    Small ailments do get better eventually even without treatment. If 2 groups of people are invited and one group is given homeopathic pills and the other is given just sugar pills, it is virtually impossible to tell which group received what. Both groups will have a certain proportion of patients who insist that the pill made them better… at very equal proportions. That just means there is no difference between a plain sugar pill or a homeopathic pill. But there will be a HUGE difference when an actually potent medicine is provided to a third group. Some can’t grasp this even when this is explained to them. That is sad.

    A famous doctor says all diseases originate in our minds (and are solved there). But other doctors seem to give prominence to drugs and laugh at his foolishness.

    Let’s call this “famous doctor”, B.M. Hegde. Actual doctors laugh at him because his ideas are indeed laughable. Malaria does not originate in the mind, TB does not originate in the mind, Cholera does not originate in the mind, Diabetes does not originate in the mind. Even with mental disease, you cannot think yourself to health when you have Schizophrenia. Non-medical audience is too uninformed to tell the difference between actual scientific medicine and feel-good nonsense, further made believable when a guy waves his degrees, conveniently forgetting that for every such person, there are 99 sane and actually scientifically literate people with the same qualifications that find the said tripe laughable.

    It is very unfortunate that getting degrees from big colleges still did not teach him the scientific temper. Or maybe it did, but he decided to go to the dark side because he wanted to market SilverSol, a quack medicine from US. I can only guess.

    Astrology may not be a science as is reckoned by scientists but it ‘works’ somehow.

    It does not “work”. That is what not being a science means. Convincing you that it does is not the proper standard of working.

    Astrology is a science’ by John Abraham supports its acceptability as something ‘working’ for our benefit.

    The easiest way to become popular is not by telling people what they need to know. It is by telling people what they already believe to be true is true, even if it isn’t. It looks like Hegde and whoever this Abraham is, are birds of a feather. There are always enough authors who spin pseudoscience and scientifically untrained people are simply tempted to look for books that confirm their beliefs, rather than put effort in understanding data and analysis.

    I don’t know what do the scientists say on the predictions of Nostradamus!

    In the Christian community, every generation since the the death of Jesus believed that the events in the book of revelations are coming true and the end times are near. The fact that it never came never deters them. What do you think is happening here? Write something vague: this provides a model… and people will strive to fit reality to it, whether it actually fits or not… and call it a working prophesy. Same principles that make people fall for Astrology. This is why I said: “There should be clear apriori demarcation criterion of the outcomes”.

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