Practicing Atheism In One’s Life Under All Circumstances

Written by November 26, 2010 6:55 am 34 comments

Many of those of us who are non-believers have problems with holding on to our ideology in times of crisis. This happens during illness, death of someone close to us, and performance of some of the rituals connected with the religion into which one is born. We should have our own ways to deal with such things. I am going to narrate some incidents that I can recall so that they could be of some guidance to others who share our ideology. It will probably give them the strength to face certain pressures. This is not an instruction manual for us atheists but a narration of my experiences that show how, even in an orthodox society, it is possible for one to live with one’s own convictions and resist pressures to conform to the so-called norms of the religion into which one is born.

I have been an atheist from around the age of ten or so, or at least as long as five decades of my life. When I was a child and naturally dependent on parents there was some difficulty in expressing my atheism, but my mother knew about it. The first ceremony into which I should have been willingly involved was the thread ceremony. When it was said that it would be inflicted on me, I refused. Somehow, there was no pressure about this, and my two brothers and I managed to reach adulthood without this ceremony being inflicted on us. Then came examinations. Particularly the school and college examinations ,which I managed to pass without any offerings or prayers to non existent god/s. When I passed my masters degree with a university first and a distinction, some of my friends and relatives were totally surprised that I managed to pass without any prayers or offerings to gods. However all warned me that I would have to make compromises in my stand when I would get married, because marriages in the community into which I was born involve religious rituals, matching of hor(ror)oscopes and such stupidities. I told the scoffers that I would marry only someone who would agree to my conditions. I was told to prepare myself for a life time of bachelorhood! I managed to overcome this gloomy prediction and my marriage was done under the conditions put forward by me – involving no religious ceremonies and superstitious rituals of any sort. In India we have a Special Marriages Act under which no religious ceremonies need to be performed and the very act of registration by the concerned official is the marriage ritual. I married Asha who was agreeable to these conditions.When I made the decision to marry I told her that I was an atheist and no religious rites are to be performed in my residence. For many years I was staying with my parents and hence could not impose any conditions.

atheistmarriage

Yours Truly's Atheist Marriage

The same was my condition when I started a very small scale industry with some partners- my condition was that no bribes would be given to anyone and no religious ceremonies would be performed. We managed to to do this and are still running the business without violating these conditions since it was started in 1976! No religious ceremonies have been performed or any religious symbol displayed at the premises till date. The same has been applied to my residence as well once I purchased one. Often there are conflicts with one’s spouse and those relatives friends who stay with us.When someone comes to stay in my house, I impose one condition that no religious rituals can be conducted in there. They are free to pray and even keep a religious icon in their bed room but cannot light fires or incense. Priests of any religion cannot perform any prayers at my house.

In fact, when I purchased a new apartment and the house-warming was to be done, we invited our friends and relatives to a lunch on a new moon day falling on a saturday, supposed to be the most inauspicious day. When people queried why, I told them that all invitees would be available because there would be no other function on that day! It was true- all invitees turned up! The menu consisted of all items including non-vegetarian dishes – people were shocked because no Hindu would do that. Some of my relatives asked me as to how I could do that for a house warming. I replied that there was no compulsion on them to eat the non vegetarian items. I could see quite a few of them helping themselves very liberally to the very same things which they claimed should not be served for house-warming. One of my relatives asked me where the puja room was. It is customary in the community into which I was born to have a separate room for performing ritualistic worship to the myriad of gods of the Hindu pantheon. I pointed out to a room and when he opened it, it was the toilet. He was quite cut up with me and asked me whether that was the way to answer his question. Then I told him that knowing that I am an atheist he should not have asked such a question, reminded him that god is omnipresent and told him what was the problem if you worship there! I also reminded that that room would fulfill a more essential need than a room to worship any god! I told him that one could be alive without worshiping any god but cannot without using the toilet!

In 1985 or so I had an attack of fever which was not coming down by any medication. A few weeks before we had taken on a proprietor of a place of worship nearby. His henchmen had kidnapped, raped and murdered the daughter of an atheist who had dared to contest for an election there.Our group had protested against that and had demanded a CBI inquiry as the local police were hand in glove with them. The temple which he owned was dedicated to a powerful deity who could allegedly destroy anyone. When I came down with the illness which could not be properly diagnosed and treated, it was said that it was the curse of this deity that caused it. Many rituals were proposed to my parents and wife so that the curse could be withdrawn. But I was adamant and refused to do any of that. In fact, I got well a few days after this suggestion was made and if I had succumbed to letting them perform the rituals, it would have been claimed as the best proof for the powers of that god!

In 1995 my mother was dying of cancer. At that time suggestions were made by her relatives and some other well-wishers that she should be treated with all sorts of quack remedies including homeopathy. She firmly resisted those and told everyone to let her die in peace. She also told me on her death bed that her body should not be taken in a procession with all decorative marks of a lady who had predecased her husband! In the community into which I was born that was considered to be the best sort of death for a married lady! She also told me that while she knew I would not perform any ceremonies for sending her soul to heaven, I should not donate her remains to the medical college. She wished to be cremated without any religious rituals. But her last wishes were not respected by my father who summoned a priest. No priest was willing to come; the moment they heard her son’s name they gave some excuse and went away. Finally an amateur priest was summoned who came with a book of incantations in his hand. I told him that since he had been summoned by my father, he can ask my father to do whatever he wanted but I would not do anything connected with any religious ceremony. It turned out that he was not the one required to perform any rites, and only the sons had to do them. I refused point-blank and told them I would be only involved to the extent of taking her body for cremation. The amateur priest who had come was very professional in his approach, particularly about collecting the fees for the various rituals. My father also emotionally black-mailed my brothers into taking part in all rituals. The first thing that the priest did was consult his almanac and announced grandly that this lady had died at a very inauspicious time. In fact that the same is said of every death. She had passed away at the conjunction of five planets and unless appropriate rituals were done to propitiate them, five more members of the family would die. I replied that let us not do them and see what happens! The reaction was that do you think that these are very frivolous things? I said yes what you people are saying sounds like a joke! Then came the cremation and after a few days the issue of sending her soul to heaven. I refused to perform any ritual connected to that. My father, and more importantly, the members of my mother’s natal family tried to persuade me to perform these rituals. I had to face their wrath for not performing them, but I refused to succumb.

The next occasion when a death took place in our family was when my father passed away. He was having end-stage renal failure and was hospitalized. I had fixed some training programs in Uttaranachal at that time and did not want to cancel them, so I had to go ahead. When I was starting on my journey I was told by the nephrologist that he would not survive till my return. But I did not want to to trouble the organizers because of my personal problems and went ahead after making arrangements for his treatment and disposal of the body after death. The news of his death came when I was busy in the training program. The trainees asked me what the matter was and I told them. They asked me whether the program was called off and they had to go back. They had assumed that I would be going back. When I asked them why I should go back, they were very surprised. I told them that if I could bring my father back to life I would certainly go back to do it. Once a person is no more all that is needed to be done is to cremate the body. I told them I had already made arrangements for that and it is more important to do something for the living than grieve for the dead. They said that in their place the one who dies is lucky, because the living have to suffer. When I queried as to why it was so, they said that the dead person’s family had to give to the priest who performs the rites all his requirements for a year! The expenses associated with sending a person to heaven were so high that some families have had to mortgage their houses to meet them!

After a fortnight when I reached home some people told me that I was a ungrateful son for not having sent my father’s soul to heaven. They said that if I could not afford it I should have performed at least a grade 3 ceremony to send his soul there. When I queries as to what that was I was told that a 1st grade ceremony would cost Rs.10,000 or more. When I asked how much more, I was told there was no upper limit. It all depended on the son’s capacity! One could even spend millions on it. The second grade one would cost Rs.8000 and was for the poor. The 3rd grade was for the really pauperized person and would cost only Rs.3000. So, even sending one’s dead to heaven could be by different types of transport, depending on ones capacity to pay! By contrast, when Premanand, whom I considered as my ideological father, warned me on his death bed- do not cancel any program to come and see my dead body. He was very particular that no religious rites should be performed for his body and stated that he did not have any soul! We had made arrangements for that through our rationalist groups and his body was donated to the medical college.

I have seen hypocrites who never bothered to look after their parents when alive, shedding copious tears over their bodies and performing all sorts of rites with pomp and ceremony to show others how much they cared for their parents! I was under attack from members of my father’s family. In fact a few years after my mother died, there was ‘trouble’ at the family house. The family into which I was born has a family house in which the deity of the family is installed and all the religious ceremonies are performed. All members of the extended joint family meet there for religious ceremonies on some festival days. When the cause for the trouble was ‘researched’ by some as(s)trologers who charged huge sums for their ‘services’, a great discovery was made that my mother’s soul was the one causing the problems. It was because I being the eldest son had not done the ceremonies that should have sent it to heaven! So, they asked me to do them. I refused. So, finally the as(s)trologers cast a magical spell around the family house so that the ‘trouble’ would cease and her soul would not enter there! Probably her soul is still doing the rounds looking for someone to send it on to heaven! When my father died they raked up the incident with the ‘trouble’ and the as(s)trologer, and told me that I had not performed the rites when my mother died and that I was doing the same thing again now that my father was dead. I said it will not be done when I die too, and so they could all be ready for more ‘trouble’ when I too die! It is very important to feed the priests, perform all sorts of mumbo-jumbo rituals and pay the priests  through the nose to send someone’s soul to heaven after death! The degree of love to a parent is not determined by how one treats them when alive, but by what one does after they die! It is more important to take care of the soul after death than the body when one is alive!

Another issue is regarding declaring ones religion on official records. During every census I have told the enumerators that I am an atheist and note this on the form which they fill up. In the University where I was employed they sent a form to all the faculty asking them to fill in details of their caste and religion. I wrote nil for both. I got a memo from the head of the institution asking me to once again state my caste and religion. Then I replied that I had neither. That was followed by one more asking for the caste and religion into which I am born. At that time I had no option but to state them with a rider that one is not born into a religion. This is a common problem, including when submitting affidavits to the courts. I take care to see that no religion is mentioned. Some of the atheist groups have evolved their own secular, non-religious ceremonies for those who do not want religious rituals to be performed on them. The atheist groups of Tamilnadu have a type of marriage, called Self-Respect marriage, in which no supernatural power is invoked, The Arjak Samaj, another atheistic group in North India have their own non-religious ceremonies for marriage, birth and death. The Humanist groups  all over the world have their own secular non-religious ceremonies for milestones of life. So, it is not needed to follow any superstitious rituals for recording the important events in one’s life. It can be done without invoking any diety or supernatural powers.

It is very important that those of us who claim that all these ceremonies invoking supernatural powers are useless should have the courage not to perform them or take an active role in them. We should have the courage of conviction to stick to our ideology in times of crises. I know that many of us feel it is very difficult for us do this, but it is not impossible. We can resist the imposition of superstitious beliefs on us. I have tried to live up to my convictions so far and will try to do so as far as possible. I do hope that this will be an example for those who want to live a life based on their own convictions and not based on those thrust upon them by society or religious authorities. I have to mention that the inspiration to live my life in this way has come from the lives of the ideological leaders of the rationalist movement who have shown through their actions that it is possible to do so. I have to mention the names of Abraham T. Kovoor and B.Premanand who were my major inspirations. We also had senior radical humanists like G.K.Nettar, B.R.Mallya at Mangalore who were much older. They had lived their lives based on such principles as I described above, and they guided me when I had doubts. It is because of these rationalists that it was possible for me to learn how to practice atheism in all aspects of life.

This post was written by:

- who has written 110 posts on Nirmukta.

34 Comments

  • Kudos to you, sir. That is quite an achievement in this shithole of medieval superstitions.

  • Satish Chandra

    Thank you for sharing your experiences Prof. Nayak. They will serve as an inspiration for those of us who sometimes reluctantly participate in religious rituals out of fear of appearing abnormal to our families.

  • Thank you Prof. Nayak for sharing your experience. It is indeed very difficult to live life always without participating in something religious.

    Long back in kerala I was visiting my grandparents. It was evening around sunset when my grandma asked me to go to the temple up the road and pray. I told her immediately I dont believe in god. We started arguing over religion & god and I asked her very bluntly to prove if god exists. Her reply was that “it is all maya” i.e an illusion! She stopped talking to me and finally I agreed on a truce to break the silence. I said I will not enter the temple but light a lamp outside. She was happy with the deal.
    I realised that my atheism was important but I couldn’t bear not talking to her and I vist her once in a year only. She passed away a few years ago and your experience brought forward this incident to my memory now.

    Thanks

  • Well… I turned atheist after my marriage. My wife is a practising Hindu. I get dragged into all sorts of idiotic ceremonies, which I endure: I do not want to hurt my wife (after all, I’m the one who changed after marriage!).

    I have stopped going to temples, though. I make my views clear, slowly trying to make my wife understand that there are things I simply do not want to do. I do not try to change her point of view… I feel that she has the right to hold her own views. I do wish that I had given up religion before I got married. That way, I could have spared both of us some pain!

    As for my kids (the eldest is just 3 years old), I hope to instil some amount of scientific and logical reasoning in them: they can decide for themselves afterwards if they want to be religious or not.

    My father (he was a religious man, although he was very much against many aspects of all organised religions) wanted me to perform his last rites when he died, although he knew that I had lost my faith. When he died, I considered this request as his last wish, and did so (maybe I’m rationalising here).

    I do whatever I can to remain true to my (lack of) faith. But, I have made compromises, because I did not want to hurt the people I love. Deep down, there is a part of me that wishes that I had been uncompromising in my principles, but hurting a fellow human, especially one I love and who loves me in return, is anathema to me.

  • Sir.. Firstly, take a bow. My salute to you, and your mother for her brave decision at the end.
    Very admirable.. your sticking to the principles even in the most ‘alone-situations’. Your decision at the end-of-life situations of both parents is very courageous, and is prompting me to broach the topic with my own parents.
    Your post has galvanized me to register as an organ donor (which turned out to be a 2-minute job :-)).

    And Re:
    I married Asha who was agreeable to these conditions.When I made the decision to marry I told her that I was an atheist and no religious rites are to be performed in my residence. For many years I was staying with my parents and hence could not impose any conditions.
    My commiserations are with Ms Asha, who must have certainly banged her head against the wall numerous times in her life 😀

    • @ astrokid.nj
      After being married for 30 years she has learnt to put up with me! She probably looks at the positive side of things- her parents did not spend anything on her marriage or the inviting son-in-law to the house for various festivals and lavishing expensive gifts on him, she can go around without any black thing round her neck like all Hindu wives have to do, she need not perform various fasts and rituals or wait for her husband to come before having meals etc.! Besides that these things were not imposed after marriage! I had made a write up about my marriage which has not been put up. I think Ajita could do that.

      • Dear prof Nayak, I had no idea that you wanted the marriage article posted here, since you sent me a pdf of the article as it had appeared elsewhere with instructions to use the image from it for this article (Practicing Atheism…). I’d like to mention that there are 4 other editors of Nirmukta, and I have made it explicitly clear to all that in my last few months in the US while I struggle to complete necessary work, juggle my time managing Nirmukta and still find time for original writing, all the editors should be involved in editing submissions. I have made this clear to all the contributors as well, insisting that all future articles must be sent to all the editors. This article, ‘Practicing Atheism in One’s Life Under All Circumstances’ was edited and posted by me. I hope that in the future all your articles are posted immediately.

  • Thanks for posting this Narendra – you’re a good example to follow.

  • Prof. Nayak,
    Thanks for sharing your life experiences. I am young and its been just a few months since my atheism has been fully known to my family members and though my family accepts that I have the right to my opinion and beliefs, I am pissed off because they are looking at me in a sad way, like I have gone astray. I am finishing my Masters in the US and am having a tough time finding a job and I get told every time I talk with them not to dwell and waste time on all this since this is a testing time for me and is affecting my lifestrides. I hate it when my parents and extended family give me a lot of pathos and pity for all that I believe in, even though I know that they care deeply. Hope I have the kind of courage you do for a lifetime ahead.

    • I too was looked upon that way when I was younger. Now they are convinced that what I am saying is right but have gone deep into the religious rut and are unable to get out of it. Most of our older relatives are no more and as it is I did not care much for any one of them. Those who are still around have now learnt to put up with my convictions as I have lived by them and am not a hypocrite.

  • Dr.Sandeep Nayak S

    Hi Pr.Nayak,
    Fantastic article. Your approach to life is simple and humanly. I was always wondering as to how to convince people so that they will not involve me forcefully into such blind rituals. This article has taught me how to face such circimstances.
    I have some experiences of which I wish to quote some.
    I was called by an organisation last year to speak about “Snakes and snake bites”. I told them that I would get a cadaver of poisonous snakes ancluding cobra for practical demonstration of flangs and how to differentiate btwn poisonous and non poisonous.

    Organizers knew that I am an atheist and tough to convince me but they did not want me to get cadaver of Indian Cobra/naja naja/naaga. In my home town, seeing cadaver of cobra is believed to be inauspicious(cobra is considered as god or equal to god and temples are constructed where cobra is offered some rituals) and they did not want to mess up whole programme. I explained them that nothing is going to happen and let us take this chance to educate people to come out of their belifs.
    So, we came to an agreement that we shall not force anyone to see cobra but if anyone is interested, arrangements shall be made in one room. During program, I took the privilage to educate them about blind beliefs about snakes and snake bites where I mentioned about cadaver of cobra. Luckily, more than 90% of audience turned into room to see cadaver and I demonstrated there!!

    I have some cadevers of snakes (We din’t kill any snakes but we collected cadaver when we found) and had to preserve(in formalin) it in my home as I did not have any othe place. People including my relatives and friends suggested me not to keep inside house as there is a small probability that it could cause some evil spirit can harm me and my family and can affect even to my great grand children and tried convincing me that science is too immature to know explain these. I told them that I shall face it. Many of them stopped coming to my house believeing that it might affect them as well(even though they came when they had illness and wanted my opinion about medication).
    As time turned out, they were convinced that nothing happened and recently my paternal uncle who was the first one to stop coming to my home called me over phone to get some formalin from market as he found one young Cobra cadaver in his garden!!

    Yes, We need to strongly condemn such acts and not allow anyone to impose those upon us.

    As, I am unmarried I just wonder what if I dont get a compatible girl who is an atheist?! Or if I find a girl who seems to be compatible in most of aspects and happens to be a strong believer and she wants such rituals for marriage!? :) 😉

    • Keep looking for one Sandeep and you will get one. There is a long way for you to go and marriage is only one of the milestones. I had written one about my marriage too and I will mail it you.

  • Amazing article. But “Practicing Atheism” sounds bad because it implies that atheism is also some sort of organized belief system.

    • It is not. It is only keeping out the superstitious beliefs thrust on us which have no rational basis. I am only pointing out the ways by which legal norms can be fulfilled without any religious ceremonies.

  • I am sorry, but religious beliefs (or lack of them) should be personal, as long as one enforces them, he/she is not doing anything better than the fundamentalist he/she denounces.

    Your “practice” of atheism is so strong that you seem to force everyone around you to practice it along with yourself. How is this any different from a person of religion “X” forcing and preaching everyone around him that his/her religion is the only true way?

    I respect your belief that there is no God, I vehemently support you in your abhorrence of useless ritual ideals, but I don’t support you when you enforce these on others. If you are free to believe what you think is right, then so are others.

    • Satish Chandra

      Who is enforcing atheism? People within a familial/friends circle are always influencing each other on a variety of matters. How does that become “forcing”? Unlike religion atheism doesn’t enjoy tax breaks and protection by law and people are truly free to do whatever they want with atheism (Follow it/abhor it/hurl abuses at it). You seem to think atheism somehow excludes secularism.

      • We are not like the proselityzing missionaries forcing people to come to our side. We are only reminding them that conditioning has made them believe in things which have no rational basis. If some one belonging to a particular religion were forced to conduct things according to our specifications then we could be blamed of that. We never do that.
        In a school where I donate books for all the children every year I don’t make them shout no god before giving them those things. But, today when I went there I saw the children chanting Hindu shlokas before they partook a meal supplied by the govt from public funds. I have seen similar things happen in catholic schools which are funded by the secular state. Probably the same thing is happening in state funded madrasas too.

    • “How is this any different from a person of religion “X” forcing and preaching everyone around him that his/her religion is the only true way?”

      1. False equivalence. If you have to ask this question, you have not really understood what Freethought is about. You see, some of us give a damn about things like the OBJECTIVE TRUTH, which tends to be important if we wish to build fact-based moral solutions to social problems.

      2. We all make judgments about ideas and behaviors. We all push some idea or the other. For example, you are just here pushing a false equivalence on us. Nobody who wrote this article came on your website and addressed you, “forcing and preaching” to you. See how that works?

  • Dear prof Nayak,
    Your views on donating your body after death?
    GNN

    • It will be donated to the medical college. I have learnt anatomy on some one’s body let some one learn on mine it is as simple as that. They could also use any organs which could be used for transplant.

  • Good!
    MAy i know what is the procedure for whole body donation?

    • You have to submit a form to the anatomy department of the medical college to which you wish to donate your body signed by witnesses who better be members of your family as when one dies it is the near ones who have to do the job of handing over ones body.

  • Mujtaba ahmed

    Mr. Narendra! You are an inspiration!

  • i am an atheist since an age of 10 or so too though that is just a decade in my my life.
    This article is an inspiration but i can’t say i am /have been motivated enough to practice atheism under all circumstances

    I did my schooling from Lancers convent in delhi , our chairman was a strict believer of sai baba (the satya one/ reincarnation one) an remember i would pretend to pray to sai baba to avoid spankings which we got if our eyes weren’t closed / were not chanting mantras properly

    ten years down the line i still don’t regret my actions even though it may somewhat reflect cowardice

    It makes sense for a theist to sacrifice on opportunities or become a martyr since religious faiths happen to be very strong and may numb rational thoughts but

    i can see not possible reason for me as an atheist or someone else to be so obsessed with atheism that one may cause persistent domestic feuds or face resistance from religious groups , risk a chance of being held for contempt of court by refusing to take oath under god or reduce the list of prospective brides drastically so that one may not have to for once on the day of marriage speak few words that signify submitting to god, this world is not ready for such a lifestyle ,

    i understand that condition can only be improved by stepping forward and inspiring the world with such feats but this is a short life and unlike a suicide bomber who may die for eternal heaven do not believe in reincarnation or afterlife

    • i understand that condition can only be improved by stepping forward and inspiring the world with such feats but this is a short life
      How much longer do you think life should be, before it becomes worth while to fight for causes one holds dear? 200 years maybe?

  • Great article, Mr Nayak! I’ve been an atheist for nearly 4 years now and am still learning to deal with “norms” and “accepted behaviour” and other such nonsense. I agree with all that you have just said except the part where you didn’t return after your father’s demise. I respect your reasons for your actions, but had I been in your place, I would have most probably returned just to get one last glimpse of him. However, I am in complete accord with everything else you have mentioned. I admire your steely will and strength in your (non) belief.

    • About my fathers demise-The problem was that the dates were given three months before. The participants had come from all over the state of Uttarakhand. There you know you can see a place across the hill but to get there it takes several hours. When I started on my trip he was in end stage renal failure and the nephrologist had told me that I would not see him alive again. Yet I did not wish to run away from my commitments. I told the boys who had come for the training- if he would come back to life by my going I would certainly go back. But, there is no need for me to go to dispose the body which was arranged when I started on my trip.

  • Sir,

    Hats off. That’s an amazing article you have got up there! Inspirational One.
    I have always wondered how difficult would be for an atheist to get married without following any religious rituals and also not to mention ‘religions’ while mentioning forms. Your article has indeed cleared all my doubts.
    I always make it a point not to mention a religion/caste in any forms that I have to fill. Being a Student and a Job-Seeker I go through these situation on a regular basis and often wondered why is it so mandatory to have such a column filled.

    Kudos to you!

  • Sir.

    Hats off to u sir ….. ts indeed great to read this :)and u r braveness is to be appreciated :) we will try to follow it :)

  • Hello Sir,
    It is very nice and a privilege to have people like you. I am happy to say that I was born into an atheist parents and hence since then it is absolutely devoid of any religious aspects. We are just raised as human beings, as simple as that. Even in the school and college records (and now as employees) in the column for cast or religion we have written humanism. I believe I am very fortunate to be living this way. Our family has always stepping similarly to the circumstances similar to what you have narrated.

    Thank you and well wishes :)

  • Sir hats off to you. You are a great inspiration to me. I thought it’d be impossible to stick to my atheism in this society which is so bent on tradition. But being a student I face many difficulties in filling forms. It becomes necessary for me to fill in my religion and caste in application forms. I’m curious as to know if this is really necessary? Is it really possible to just write nil in both columns?

  • One of my relatives asked me where the puja room was. It is customary in the community into which I was born to have a separate room for performing ritualistic worship to the myriad of gods of the Hindu pantheon. I pointed out to a room and when he opened it, it was the toilet.

    Here’s a post to show folks still asking the question…
    To pray and to poo (Cobra Post, Nov 9 2013)

Leave a Reply


Comments are moderated. Please see our commenting guidelines